Helander over Katic

I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.
All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.

some of us on here give the manager and the players praise when we do well. Some of us will also offer criticism when we think a mistake has been made.
Some on FF though seem to think any criticism or opinion contrary to that of the manager isn’t allowed and you should never question the manager.
Sorry I don’t buy this, I am a football fan and a fan of Rangers and I want what is best for the team as does SG of course.
I have said that I think Katic is better than Goldson (SG clearly doesn’t think so), I have shown with the stats that Goldson has directly been responsible for more goals than Katic has.
However some like yourself will say the stats show Goldson is better and that is why SG plays him. However you are just using one set of stats that back up your argument and ignoring stats that don’t.
Apart from Moscow I am still waiting for a list of errors Katic has made that caused goals.
I want us playing our best team to ensure we win the league. Celtic were weak last year and we threw away a chance to win the league.
The players and the manager missed an opportunity last season, however it was his first managerial possession and he had a fucking horrible squad he inherited.
However fans are nervy as this was roughly about the time last year we fucked about with our central defence and the frustration is if we make the same errors again this year.
 
I agree that bringing in Worrall for Katic last season was a mistake. Who's to say what exactly what the thinking was behind that move, in hindsight it looks like a mistake, but the important thing for me this season is it's Helander that Katic has been dropped for and not Worrall.

Helander was brought in to be the big player in those games you talked about. He represents Sweden at international level, has won league titles at Malmo, has racked up plenty of experience against top opposition in the champions league & Serie A - it's exactly the type of CV I want at the heart of our defence when it comes to these big games.

I just don't see what there is to get so worked up about with Katic being left out. The defence is functioning well with Helander & Goldson at the back so far, and there's been a notable improvement in Barisic's form as well - whether that's all down to Helander coming into the squad we'll see, but if the trend of clean sheets continues then I'll happily see Katic sit on the bench for the rest of the season. All I care about is winning games. If things start to wobble again then we can debate bringing Katic back into the side, but just don't see why it's an issue at the moment.

Your last paragraph is true. People who think Katic is better will (me included) just have to accept it and enjoy the ride if we win cups and the title.
If this happens then SG is correct to do what he has done.
However we haven’t won anything yet and it is only recently Katic has been dropped.
Only time will show what happens and I hope the manager gets it right.
 
I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.

All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.

We've kept two clean sheets since Katic has been left out.

Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.
 
He was decent today , only negative was when him and May challenged for the ball which fell for MOH.

This was because, yet again, Helander doesn't jump to head the ball. This is something I've noticed over the two games he's started - it happened numerous times on Thursday night as well. It's bizarre, and it's going to lead to us conceding more chances unless he starts attacking the ball with authority.

Go back and watch either or both of the games and you'll see what I mean - he keeps him feet planted and relies on upper body strength to win the ball.
 
If Gerrard can get Goldson to stop thinking he's Becanbauer then he would be very decent. He constantly floats the ball into no man's land, passes direct to opposition, too much pondering on the ball slowing it down. If he had Edmundsons distribution:)
The problem I have with Goldson is he lets the ball bounce a lot and it causes us problems he's a great organiser/shouter but some of his passing is awful.
 
I think Gerrard underestimates what a kick in the stones it is for a player to be excluded from the match day squad completely and left in the stand. As others have mentioned, had they scored from the frankly hopeless Helander header you're looking at an entirely different thread.
 
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.



Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.

I think people are just looking for things that aren't there now to justify the shout to get Katic back in the team. We had been struggling to get clean sheets all season and we've now had 2 on the spin.

I like Katic btw I think he's solid and is a good prospect but the obsession with him on here is becoming really weird.
 
I think Gerrard underestimates what a kick in the stones it is for a player to be excluded from the match day squad completely and left in the stand. As others have mentioned, had they scored from the frankly hopeless Helander header you're looking at an entirely different thread.

Come on, we've even had Dirk Kuyt in the past week relating a story about how SG was omitted from a match-day squad but came back the next day training even harder.

I would suggest Gerrard knows the significance of dropping a player.
 
I like Katic and have no doubts he will go on to have a brilliant career, but he is very much over rated on here. For me Goldson is still the better CB of the 2.

Some on here need to chill out and trust in the gaffer.

It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.
 
Love big Katic. Thing is though. In order to have a good centre back pairing we have to pick two and let them play together as much as possible. Don't think there is much between Goldson and Katic, but Gerrard made Goldson vice captain for a reason. Helander gives us much more balance being naturally left sided. I would continue with these two unless one of the loses form completely.
 
Fearful that this is deja vu from last season. Thought Gerrard would have learned that a stable partnership is needed at the back to let the partnership gain confidence. Katic and Goldson have that. Danger is games will be lost to allow Helander and Goldson the time to develope a partnership. Tinkering like this cost us the league last year. Hope we’re not in for a repeat.
 
I think people are just looking for things that aren't there now to justify the shout to get Katic back in the team. We had been struggling to get clean sheets all season and we've now had 2 on the spin.

I like Katic btw I think he's solid and is a good prospect but the obsession with him on here is becoming really weird.

I respect your views DB, but do disagree on this.

From my observations Goldson has been struggling for maybe 6 weeks. His distribution in particular is poor, as both of these two games again illustrated, despite two good wins & two shutouts.

He was clearly also at fault for the vital goal against the scum due to a bad pass & also lost his man in a second half corner v Feyenoord.

Do we want to wait until we lose a vital game or address an issue before it happens ? I think we will all agree the latter.

I absolutely accept Katic is young & has development issues, but Goldson’s seem to be ignored.
 
This was because, yet again, Helander doesn't jump to head the ball. This is something I've noticed over the two games he's started - it happened numerous times on Thursday night as well. It's bizarre, and it's going to lead to us conceding more chances unless he starts attacking the ball with authority.

Go back and watch either or both of the games and you'll see what I mean - he keeps him feet planted and relies on upper body strength to win the ball.

There's been a change in the way the pairing operate mate. Previously Katic was the ball-winner, the man who went to challenge in the air, whilst Goldson, generally, stood off and picked up the pieces. This is for high punts up the park from the opposition, rather than crosses into the box. I've noticed over the last couple of games that Goldson is challenging in the air a lot more than when Katic partners him. Whether that's for better or worse remains to be seen.

As I've said many times now, IMHO there's little to choose between our centre-backs in terms of ability but Goldson and Helander bring the experience. Goldson also bring the leadership qualities that the others don't have in our defence (and I'd include Tav in that as well). His distribution can be poor (it can also create chances) but, in truth, most of the time the ball should simply be getting rolled to Davis or Jack in any case.
 
I respect your views DB, but do disagree on this.

From my observations Goldson has been struggling for maybe 6 weeks. His distribution in particular is poor, as both of these two games again illustrated, despite two good wins & two shutouts.

He was clearly also at fault for the vital goal against the scum due to a bad pass & also lost his man in a second half corner v Feyenoord.

Do we want to wait until we lose a vital game or address an issue before it happens ? I think we will all agree the latter.

I absolutely accept Katic is young & has development issues, but Goldson’s seem to be ignored.

Gerrard will take part of the blame as well for Goldson making bad passes as hes the one instructing our defenders to be brave and pass the ball from the back. Mistakes are always going to happen when you're taking more risks in that regard. Goldson was just unlucky against Celtic that his mistake was punished. Katic made a similar error in the 2nd half and Goldson had to make a last ditch challenge to prevent Celtic scoring again. These things happen.

As I said, I like Katic but if in arguing to get him back in the team I'm not basing it on his distribution. Passing is one of Katics big weaknesses imo.
 
Fearful that this is deja vu from last season. Thought Gerrard would have learned that a stable partnership is needed at the back to let the partnership gain confidence. Katic and Goldson have that. Danger is games will be lost to allow Helander and Goldson the time to develope a partnership. Tinkering like this cost us the league last year. Hope we’re not in for a repeat.
We've just beaten Feyenoord 1-0 and St Johnstone 4-0 away from home. The level of bleating over this is absolutely incredible. Helander, currently, is a better defender than Katic. This notion that we're going to start dropping points because we've introduced an experienced CH who's played at the very highest level of club football and 3 years in Serie A is utterly ludicrous. It just screams of people needing something to moan about.
 
some of us on here give the manager and the players praise when we do well. Some of us will also offer criticism when we think a mistake has been made.
Some on FF though seem to think any criticism or opinion contrary to that of the manager isn’t allowed and you should never question the manager.
Sorry I don’t buy this, I am a football fan and a fan of Rangers and I want what is best for the team as does SG of course.
I have said that I think Katic is better than Goldson (SG clearly doesn’t think so), I have shown with the stats that Goldson has directly been responsible for more goals than Katic has.
However some like yourself will say the stats show Goldson is better and that is why SG plays him. However you are just using one set of stats that back up your argument and ignoring stats that don’t.
Apart from Moscow I am still waiting for a list of errors Katic has made that caused goals.
I want us playing our best team to ensure we win the league. Celtic were weak last year and we threw away a chance to win the league.
The players and the manager missed an opportunity last season, however it was his first managerial possession and he had a fucking horrible squad he inherited.
However fans are nervy as this was roughly about the time last year we fucked about with our central defence and the frustration is if we make the same errors again this year.
Could you tell me where these stats are as I’ve missed them?
I read your post telling us the goals Goldson caused by these aren’t the only mistakes made.
For example, would Helander’s error when McGregor saved the shot count as an error,
Surely this information must be important if you’re looking at respective errors.
 
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.



Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.
Surely you jest.
If you score more than you concede you’ll win.
It’s that simple.
Consider this, it from a few years back but the principle is the same.
When Hamilton put Rangers out of the cup in 1987, was it the amount of chances we missed, errors by our players, or the one mistake McPherson made?
A mistake made when we should have been out of sight.
 
It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.

Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D
 
It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.

Difference is Helander is a £3.5m Swedish international...Worrall is Championship level at best.
 
Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D
Slight correction, Edmundson played against St Joseph's at Ibrox.
 
We've just beaten Feyenoord 1-0 and St Johnstone 4-0 away from home. The level of bleating over this is absolutely incredible. Helander, currently, is a better defender than Katic. This notion that we're going to start dropping points because we've introduced an experienced CH who's played at the very highest level of club football and 3 years in Serie A is utterly ludicrous. It just screams of people needing something to moan about.

I don't think anyone is moaning about Helander getting a game...it's Goldson who is getting it tight due to poor performances and his seemingly undroppable status.

FWIW Katic is easily (and I mean streets ahead) our best ball winner when it comes to aerial battles.
 
Gerrards lucky Helander and Goldson have done well together.
I like Katic but Helander is better with the ball at his feet and more experienced.
Katic is for the future.
Hope Katic starts and scores against Livi on Wednesday.
 
Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D

The Killie game, one major mistake, is still used when posters try to justify how he was 'rubbish'.
 
Something must have happened for Katic to be dropped fully? Doesn’t deserve that IMO. Gerrards got a habit of these strange decisions- the other one was dropping Candy man out the squad. Some decisions baffles me
 
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?

I need to dig through it but certainly the goal at the Piggery the 1-0 one but also he was dire after Goldson's error in the last OF game I think Katic lost his place because of the number of errors-he hasn't played anywhere near the amount of games Goldson has- in general Goldson makes less errors I haven't statistically sat down and recorded what mistakes led to goals in the case of Katic.

It's the equivalent of a key position player losing his place because of his errors as a precaution you can't throw up the stats for a guy playing more games and say he's causing more goals.

Katic is a pin up I get a big heart on his sleeve commanding player but imo and probably others he makes serious mistakes nearly every game. If I were to guess SG probably sees him developing and Helander at 26 was bought as more of a ready out the box player. Time will tell.

Katic like a few in the team is not as good as many state, Goldson I get isn't quite Terry Butcher either but he's clearly getting more stick because his putting the favourite on the bench. His status as vice captain is what it is-a bit like Tav I wouldn't be against either getting a rest-Tav in particular looks burnt out.

I think personally Katic won't put up with the situation particularly when he knows he has the fans backing him and I don't think SG will like getting challenged. He's not at the stage where's he developed enough to command a good fee. I hope he knuckles down and gets on with it.

If we get an injury and Katic plays in the "big" Scottish matches I think a few might be surprised to find he's not as good as they think.....I don't think he's played an OF game where he's not struggled -Eduard went by him for fun a few times in the last game we won at Ibrox .
 
Goldson has been responsible for about 6 goals last season and this. I cannot think of one goal Katic has been directly responsible for apart from in Moscow, where Goldson was awful also.
Both have lots of good games , however only one player is getting dropped when he has a bad game.

Against Motherwell in our 7-1 win, Katic was skinned by Bowman to set up their goal. Was that an error or just good play by the Motherwell player?

I think it's often hard to quantify who is "directly responsible" for a goal.
 
I need to dig through it but certainly the goal at the Piggery the 1-0 one but also he was dire after Goldson's error in the last OF game I think Katic lost his place because of the number of errors-he hasn't played anywhere near the amount of games Goldson has- in general Goldson makes less errors I haven't statistically sat down and recorded what mistakes led to goals in the case of Katic.

It's the equivalent of a key position player losing his place because of his errors as a precaution you can't throw up the stats for a guy playing more games and say he's causing more goals.

Katic is a pin up I get a big heart on his sleeve commanding player but imo and probably others he makes serious mistakes nearly every game. If I were to guess SG probably sees him developing and Helander at 26 was bought as more of a ready out the box player. Time will tell.

Katic like a few in the team is not as good as many state, Goldson I get isn't quite Terry Butcher either but he's clearly getting more stick because his putting the favourite on the bench. His status as vice captain is what it is-a bit like Tav I wouldn't be against either getting a rest-Tav in particular looks burnt out.

I think personally Katic won't put up with the situation particularly when he knows he has the fans backing him and I don't think SG will like getting challenged. He's not at the stage where's he developed enough to command a good fee. I hope he knuckles down and gets on with it.

If we get an injury and Katic plays in the "big" Scottish matches I think a few might be surprised to find he's not as good as they think.....I don't think he's played an OF game where he's not struggled -Eduard went by him for fun a few times in the last game we won at Ibrox .
Katic beat Edouard to everything in that game, you're remembering the only time he didn't
 
Katic beat Edouard to everything in that game, you're remembering the only time he didn't

I think the opposite is true-NK's mistakes are easier forgiven.

Whatever way you dress it up he's not the finished article and you know what he wasn't exactly expensive.
 
I don't think most would question Katic being dropped if he was making mistakes week in week out but to be completely omitted from the squad is weird when he's not done much wrong.
 
Is this Worrall? Watch him let Edouard run for 15 yards and score. Sums him up as a defender

I’m not saying he was good Necro.

I’m saying that I thought the guy learned from his error at Rugby Park & showed improvement after that.

To me his better games for us were after the Rugby Park error.
 
We've just beaten Feyenoord 1-0 and St Johnstone 4-0 away from home. The level of bleating over this is absolutely incredible. Helander, currently, is a better defender than Katic. This notion that we're going to start dropping points because we've introduced an experienced CH who's played at the very highest level of club football and 3 years in Serie A is utterly ludicrous. It just screams of people needing something to moan about.
Time will tell, hope you’re right. Baaaaaaaa!
 
Against Motherwell in our 7-1 win, Katic was skinned by Bowman to set up their goal. Was that an error or just good play by the Motherwell player?

I think it's often hard to quantify who is "directly responsible" for a goal.
I totally agree here.
The obvious answer to who is responsible though is Goldson or Tavernier.
Or just the latest whipping boy.
 
People are irritated because they genuinely believe they know better!.
Goldson has been criticised very heavily for the first septic goal.
He undoubtedly made the error that cost us possession but it was no less than forty yards from our goal and we had two players behind Goldson who cannot be considered faultless.
I can’t believe it’s being suggested that Katic had a split second to make a decision and that’s his defence.
Katic decided to go for the offside call when he could easily have shunted over.


Absolutely spot on.
 
I have now watched them both in games and like I’ve always said it’s about the partnership and how each plays with the other.

Katic a right sided player.
Plays with his heart on his sleeve.Very commanding in the air, and willing to put his body anywhere to stop the opposition.
Not so good on the ground, can get turned and sometimes impetious going in for a tackle although has greatly improved in many aspects of his game since last season and is still young.Started this season with Goldson and looked solid untill the old firm game where ironically Goldson makes the error but now it seems Katic is arguably getting more of the blame than Goldson.
A real threat at set pieces in the opposition box.

Helander a natural left sided player.
Signed for a considerable fee, so there is pressure to have him in the side to justify the fee alone.Typical Scandinavian temprement.Cool demeanor.Seems very un flustered and calm and is composed on the ball.Always looks for the easy pass.
Not so brave in the air and can get bullied going for aerial balls.Seems to talk Goldson through most games now they play together, which maybe the key to why Goldson seems slightly less confident?
Experienced International and can be a danger at set pieces in the oppositions box.

As Goldson is Gerrard’s favorite and looks like he will always play, little point talking about his attributes and faults.Or is there?
Is he really bomb proof or is SG missing out on a partnership that hasnt even been given a chance yet?

Also what has to be taken into account is that Goldson and Katic are both right sided defenders, but it was Katic that had to adapt to play on the left, to fit in playing with Goldson.Not the other way around.

Also Edmundson has looked excellent in the short time he has been given, and looks a real find as well.Probably more a right sided?
Maybe the best partnership could be with him in there with either Goldson Helander or Katic?

I can definitely see why Gerrard played Helander the natural left sided player against Feyenoord who have players who are quick, adept with both feet and like to attack more on the deck than aerial.So Helander seemed the better fit.

We in all honesty have four excellent central defenders who with time are all only going to get better with each other, but are very different to each other, so it will be as Gerrard says ‘horses for courses’.Which will mean down time for a couple unfortunately.

With every game pretty much a ‘must win’ game I don’t envy him having to make that choice and keeping them all happy.
 
Bit risky and early to make this call but just going off Helanders manner I think he is our most talented defender. I love the left foot, can tell it's already helping with the speed at which we get the ball out from the back.

I'm not touching the Katic/Goldson debate as I think they have both been suspect recently.
 
People are irritated because they genuinely believe they know better!.
Goldson has been criticised very heavily for the first septic goal.
He undoubtedly made the error that cost us possession but it was no less than forty yards from our goal and we had two players behind Goldson who cannot be considered faultless.
I can’t believe it’s being suggested that Katic had a split second to make a decision and that’s his defence.
Katic decided to go for the offside call when he could easily have shunted over.

This is true. Our central midfield was also not blameless as their positioning to offer Goldson a pass was shocking & completely exploited by their press.
 
This is true. Our central midfield was also not blameless as their positioning to offer Goldson a pass was shocking & completely exploited by their press.
I totally agree.
That said, Goldson’s choice here was poor.
At best, he’d be playing Tavernier into bother!
It’s usually a good thing not to want to just “get rid of it” but, like when he’d clear the ball from his own box in such a way, that should have been his choice and the debate with his midfield could’ve came later.
 
This is true. Our central midfield was also not blameless as their positioning to offer Goldson a pass was shocking & completely exploited by their press.

Thing is, from the age of about 5 you were taught if there isn't a pass on then just don't lose it - either play a ball into the channels, play the ball long to the striker(s) or turn out and use the keeper.
 
Short memory here?
Livingston was only eight days ago.
Their centre forward gave both our centre backs a torrid time.

No short memory but as I said its early days, in all the domestic football from Helander he hasn't looked too comfortable against the physical opponents. Katic this season (for the most part) has been the opposite of that, they both have different qualities and it does seem that we have 3 genuine 1st choice centre halfs.
 
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