Scottish teams in Europe

You can increase the money into the game here or even switch to summer football all you want but if the quality of coaching is still going to resemble a shit version of Jurassic Park then the results will stay the same.

Dundee Utd's set up tonight was utter dogshit and that is because they have coaching staff that is exactly that. Dogshit. You would expect at least a 2-0, 3-1 loss with a bit of fight.
Coaching is part of it refs are the other part allowing the tackles they do allowed the negative football

Improving standards of refs being stricter and allowing football to be played would improve the product.
 
Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

That's exactly what I have been thinking. Motherwell went out in an instant betaen home and away couldn't even get a goal far less a point for the coefficient. And at the end they alone are going to be subtracting 20% from the total earned. Somebody else needs to contribute something to maintain the current ranking and benefits.
 
Was gate money shared 50/50 at some point previously, I've a feeling it might have been. Bold suggestion, not sure I'd agree with it. The gap between the old firm and the rest is so big, in terms of attendances, the extra money for all the other clubs would be the equivalent of a good cup run and just weaken the top two. I would genuinely like to see some more competition though

It was indeed a 50/50 split of gate money for all games. OF banded together and got it changed to everyone keeps their own gate. It would be impossible for us to operate at the level we do if we had to split the gate money. We going to split the season ticket money?
 
It was indeed a 50/50 split of gate money for all games. OF banded together and got it changed to everyone keeps their own gate. It would be impossible for us to operate at the level we do if we had to split the gate money. We going to split the season ticket money?
Aye I thought that. When was the change? Obviously season ticket culture makes a huge difference as well, plus the capacities of the old grounds. Sure we could get 80k one week for an OF, go to somewhere like dens the following week to play in front of 25k, then have east fife at home in front of about 20k back in the day
 
The real reason for catastrophic failure is we don't have football people at the helm that has managed or coached at any level and too many sitting on a gravy train. If it was a business these bosses would've been shown the door long ago. That's where the overhaul needs to start if we are ever going to progress. Their sole aim seems to see Rangers beaten and nothing else.
We also need money orientated people who will look at the whole thing from a fresh perspective. People laugh at Scottish football, but this is a country where football enjoys a premium status; what is the best way to advance the game here which generates the most finance? The right marketing people should be sought; Rangers, for instance, has shown an example that Scottish football as a whole could follow.
 
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
This, many times over, plus the desire by the football authorities to place the interests of Celtic above every other team, and indeed the game as a whole.
 
Aye I thought that. When was the change? Obviously season ticket culture makes a huge difference as well, plus the capacities of the old grounds. Sure we could get 80k one week for an OF, go to somewhere like dens the following week to play in front of 25k, then have east fife at home in front of about 20k back in the day

Can't remember when it went through but might have been around 1960's
 
My thoughts - taking us and the Tims out equation

It's just a pick n mix every season of clubs with goals in this order:
- Avoid relegation
- Aim for top six and another game against Old Firm
- Scrape into a European place


Summer arrives, which usually involves a change of manager(s), loan deals for lower league English players, pre-season somewhere warm, soundbites from said new boss and players about being fired up for a Euro adventure, that ends with an early exit in agonising failure/total humiliation (del as appropriate) but it's quickly forgotten as they now have to concentrate on the league to......see the bit on bold.

Rinse, repeat, defeat.
 
Up the standards of refereeing and try to shake the image we are footballing back water that still roundly applauds violent tackles.

Expand the league to 18 teams. Scottish football is stale. It's dull as hell playing the same teams 3/4 times a season. Might actually increase the standard of play if teams didn't go into a season thinking it's fine we've got them again next month anyway.

Ban plastic pitches in top flight football. Give them a couples years and a deadline. Enough is enough. You want a plastic pitch? Fine ply your trade in the lower leagues then.

Scrap the winter break. It's pointless. Stop creating an artificially tight and congested fixture list to allow a break during the milder months of winter. I never understood the need for one to begin with, other than that mob wanting a jolly in the sun, so they could break up the monotony when we were out of the top flight. Take away the three week holiday in the winter and have a longer summer break. This will allow teams the time to prepare for these early qualifiers properly.
Agree with all the points, except # 2 (above) as Scotland is too small to have 18 decent teams. I am old enough to remember going to games when the top division had 18 teams.
 

The strongest provincial clubs could follow the Queens Park model that would be a starter .

Refereeing argument I entirely agree with OPs it’s like a different sport here .

Sfa / spl need to rewrite football constitution, amalgamate , and throw out these mentally challenged regimes and get some proper technical football skills at the heart of the new association .

And have a new business and marketing focus to uplift revenue streams considerably
what are qp doing right then? Not disagreeing just wondering?
 
They're all fucking shite in Europe, even that lot, how many years had it been since they reached the group stages of anything?

I'll give you a clue, we had enough time to piss off to the third division and back, win the league and we'd still have another couple of years to wait!

Embarrassments the lot of them.
 
We have to move on from ra cellik, it is imperative we do this.

The mindset of our game running thick like a over boiled soup within a corrupt media is dragging our game into the depths.

Rangers continue to show the way, that wasn't supposed to happen. ra cellik going for 12 in a row was supposed to happen.

We have mad bastards too who are consumed with that independence shite who can't accept the fact it will never happen (sook it up ya bunch a fannies).

Get the arseholes who have a grip on Scotland so far to fk that it pains them to sup it up.

Rangers and the People are working on them, long may it continue.

Until we rid our country of these loonballs, the likes of fking Motherwell and Dundee fking United will forever flood embarrassment toward Scotland.

Don't get me started on the Scottish National team, wee nippy strenuously tries to latch on as a means to grab some kudos.

It's pathetic that some fall for it, even more pathetic that those cunts bank on it for votes.

Fking proper boak inducing with that lot, and the stupid, dull, sheep like pricks who slaver over them in the first place.

Anyway, jog on republican scum. :p
 
Scottish teams need to pretend they are playing against Rangers when they play in Europe, that's about all that seems to get their blood pumping enough.
 
Was gate money shared 50/50 at some point previously, I've a feeling it might have been. Bold suggestion, not sure I'd agree with it. The gap between the old firm and the rest is so big, in terms of attendances, the extra money for all the other clubs would be the equivalent of a good cup run and just weaken the top two. I would genuinely like to see some more competition though
Thats the problem with radical ideas, people do not agree with them, everyone looks at the money they will lose and it becomes i mind myself.

Its the same issue with league reconstruction. Nobody agrees to it coz it affects the number of big pay days they have.

Even more radical, 50 50 gate money, but we play each other twice and increase the size of the league to 16

If it strengthening the smaller clubs helped the co efficient then maybe we get 2 teams qualifying for the champions league automatically each year so the hit for Rangers and them is not so bad. But yes, to help the smaller teams we would, in the short term, need to weaken the top two.

We all sayvne want a more competitive league. Lets proove it.
 
The teams that play us have a game plan where the refs play a huge part in it. They then go into Europe and get a hammered. The 19th Century Terrorists are also included in this bracket.
Scottish football is a pathetic race to the bottom, the quicker the corrupt cabal bankrupts itself the better.
 
We’re the only team that will continue to impress in Europe for the coming years.

I’d wager c*ltic will finish bottom of their CL group with 2, maybe 3 points, and it’ll be draws they’ve scraped together.
 
This opinion won’t be popular in Scotland but…
Teams like Motherwell, Dundee United, Hearts and Celtc are just not good enough.
They are a total embarrassment to Scotland.
The SFA or Scottish league should decline the invites for these teams.
Rangers on the other hand have been an absolute delight in Europe and the Scottish leagues and SFA should be supporting our European run with everything they have available.
This is the reality

To be completely fair, Hearts are attempting to show as much ambition as a club in their position can (especially considering they are still technically newly promoted thanks to our tiny top league system in Scotland).

They are yet to kick a ball in Europe this season too so I will hold judgement. With European group stage football guaranteed, I will be wishing them all the best, and with players like Gordon, McKay, Boyce, Shankland, Berigame (so?) etc they might just have collected a squad capable of being competitive
 
Watched that game last night. What amazes me was how poor Utd were tactically. There defending was utterly woeful. The few occasions they attacked they looked as if they could have scored. But at the back an utter shambles.

Jack Ross game plan was a disaster. Could and should have done a lot better. That was coaching, tactics and fitness.
 
The attitude of celebrating failure needs to go for a start.

Every year we we discuss how to improve the game up here, with some very good ideas, and that is from fans on a forum. Meanwhile, the people who run the game are devoid of any ideas, and are too busy destroying it with their incompetence and corruption.
 
Looking at the ECL play offs, there will definitely be teams from Latvia or NI, Bosnia or Slovakia, Kosovo or North Macedonia in the group stage. Plus teams from Cyprus, Finland, ROI, Lithuania and Armenia coming from the EL play offs.

Hearts can hopefully make some sort of impact, but Scottish clubs inability to actually qualify through numerous ties to get to the group stages is going to hard us when the CL gets revamped.

Last night was hilarious though.
 
My thoughts - taking us and the Tims out equation

It's just a pick n mix every season of clubs with goals in this order:
- Avoid relegation
- Aim for top six and another game against Old Firm
- Scrape into a European place


Summer arrives, which usually involves a change of manager(s), loan deals for lower league English players, pre-season somewhere warm, soundbites from said new boss and players about being fired up for a Euro adventure, that ends with an early exit in agonising failure/total humiliation (del as appropriate) but it's quickly forgotten as they now have to concentrate on the league to......see the bit on bold.

Rinse, repeat, defeat.
and maybe get to a cup final. Where they will only fill the allocation if it against another of the diddy teams.
 
Looking at the ECL play offs, there will definitely be teams from Latvia or NI, Bosnia or Slovakia, Kosovo or North Macedonia in the group stage. Plus teams from Cyprus, Finland, ROI, Lithuania and Armenia coming from the EL play offs.

Hearts can hopefully make some sort of impact, but Scottish clubs inability to actually qualify through numerous ties to get to the group stages is going to hard us when the CL gets revamped.

Last night was hilarious though.
Fc Vaduz from Lichtenstein who play in the Swiss lower leagues and regularly finish mid-table just went away to Turkey and eliminated Konyaspor who finished 3rd last season. Lichtenstein! Think the last time a Scottish club that wasn't us or celtic eliminated a team that was at the same level or better than them was when Aberdeen put out Rijeka and that was seven years ago now.


Scottish football has far too many negative attitudes and mentalities that drag the game down. Managers who play hoofball with hammer throwers and referees who enable them putting any club who would even think of building a team that lacks physique but can actually control a ball at a massive disadvantage. Until there's massive changes to the culture of Scottish football nothing will change. Players don't improve by seeing the ball go over their head and sit in two banks of five against us but that's what the majority of teams do hoping just to get a point instead of actually taking a risk and showing ambition even if it potentially comes at the cost of a heavy defeat.
 
We keep hearing the same argument about money but i'd love to see the budget of some of these teams that, handsomely, defeat Scottish opposition in the early rounds of European competition. We need only look at the likes of Malmo, Cluj and Fernecvaros in recent years.

True reform of the SFA and SPFL (to come under one umbrella) needs to happen with real football men at the helm. We've discussed this my whole life (i'm 38 now) and we appear to be further away from it than ever.

A start would be a genuinely worthwhile TV contract - double what we currently get as a start. Added income should go toward full time referees and a continental approach to refereeing.
 
The points about how the game is reffed here are spot on, cant help at all and we 'd see better football played if given a chance.Doesnt help that due to finances and proxity of england we seem so many clubs have a massive churn of players every season.
It really isnt its a lot of nonsense these results have nothing to do with our refs.

There probably isnt a team in world football thats protected by refs the way Celtic are in Scottish football, it makes little or no difference when the play abroad.

Utd didnt make a hard tackle all night so how exactly is this anything to do with physical play or a team/league full of hammer throwers. If anything some aggression, spirit and defensive organisation is what they lacked.

Id also suggest the English premiership is far more physical than our league and its the league everyone seems to worship.

why didnt anyone praise the refs after the first leg which utd won or for any of the results Rangers get in europe ? why is it only refs fault for defeats ?

Union had a better first leg lead than Dundee utd, they must have folded at Ibrox cos they have crap refs in Belguim.

No wonder the games a mess when folk that obviously know everything about the modern game(thanks to sky and bt) tell us the solution is simple.... treble Kevin Clancys wage and become the only league in europe that sends the keeper off for time wasting.
 
what are qp doing right then? Not disagreeing just wondering?

They have begun a football development program based upon Alkmaar principles which I am led to believe is based on data science mate .

There are pods out there about how Alkmaar operate and it will be something similar that is in pipeline at QPFC . The club is owned by Lord Haughey and has thrown resources at getting them into the Spl . Why is Haughey doing this ? That is another question he has only one club at heart .
 
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It was indeed a 50/50 split of gate money for all games. OF banded together and got it changed to everyone keeps their own gate. It would be impossible for us to operate at the level we do if we had to split the gate money. We going to split the season ticket money?

Exactly.

This isn't some fu*king socialist utopia - it's a competitive sport.

In the spirit of Marxism, we split the TV deal. The TV deal that categorically wouldn't exist without the Old Firm. The other clubs making up the top flight could change year-on-year and it would make barely any difference to the TV deal. But remove the Old Firm, or as was seen in 2012, one half of it - and the entire thing collapses along with league sponsorship (which we also split equally, incidentally).

Mon' the Commies.
 
It's a fine line because you obviously want to improve the co-efficient but backing another Scottish team in Europe would be next to impossible for me, i hate the lot of them.
 
1. Employ football people at SPFL and SFA who are unbiased and can plan for the future of the game.
2. A more equitable distribution of funds in the Premier
3. Retraining of referees to cut out the horrendous fouling and time wasting
3. Scrap league 2
4. Ban plastic pitches
5. Force teams who can’t fill their grounds to distribute spare tickets to opposition fans if requested

Points 2 and 5 will help finances the other 3 could help the footballing side.
 
It will take a huge change in the way of thinking for those involved in the countries top clubs, start looking outwards instead of inwards.

These conversations have been going on with fans in Scotland since as long as i can remember and the game is probably worse now that it ever was. Too many chairman looking after their 500 plus crowdbase when they should looking to improve the matchday experience, cheaper tickets, offer much more away tickets, work with government to get beer sold at grounds like it is at rugby. Work together to het rid of the dinosaurs and leeches in Hampden and maybe…just maybe in twenty years or so the improvements will be there to be seen.

But it won’t happen as we have chairman only looking for self preservation with ego’s so big they think they are in charge of Real Madrid. Eventually the big clubs from each country will break away and the euro leagues will be formed, cross border leagues will definately happen and when it does these clubs will either be lost or stagnate in their own filth dreaming of the days they refused Rangers fans tickets for their stadium and would rather left the stands empty
 
14 team league
Play home and away once, split into top 6 bottom 8, play home and away again, 38 total games for top 6 and 42 for bottom 8.
Scrap the league cup
Bottom 8 winner plays the team which finishes 4th/5th (depending on whether Scottish Cup winner gets the Europa League spot) in a playoff at 4th/5th place teams ground for chance to take the qualification spot.

All ways you could boost excitement and money in the Scottish game. Current league set-up is a joke and playing the same teams 4 times is enough, let alone 5 or potentially 6 (even 7 once!) times with two cup competitions populated by the same teams.

An 18 or 20 team league where we play everyone once would be ideal, but TV money demands we play them 4 times a year so we make do with what we have. A final 10 games home and away between the top 6 teams would make the league more exciting, scrapping the league cup means you can finish the first 28 games earlier, still have a winter break and have final 10 games plus Scottish cup plus (hopefully) European football all through the beginning of 2nd half of year
 
The point about refereeing makes little or no sense to me.

We heard the refs were to blame for the Motherwell result, in their next game there was a dangerous tackle which John Beaton punished with a red.

Utd didnt even make a tackle tonight they got 0 cards and defended like a ladies side. They will probably get stuck in against Rangers(well Jack Ross as manager they will defo get fired in and play with some aggression) but not every week and certainly not when they play against the tims.
I get what you’re saying but is it not possible that these teams absolutely know they have to change their game because of the fact they get away with horrendous play against the only European class team, which is us. They have no real plan B so completely fail.
 
More than anything, we seem to produce mediocre coaches. The country that produced Walter Smith, Alex Ferguson, Jim McLean doesn't produce anyone now. Our managers were in demand everywhere. Now we have Jack Ross, Robbie Nielson and Jim Goodwin. Something fundamentally wrong with how we coach the game and how we play the game. We seem to have lost something. If Dundee United are happy getting pumped once every 10 years in Europe, though, that's their problem.
 
The ref point is a good one, someone mentioned it on another thread yesterday, so I have been thinking about it. Arsene Wenger changed English football by crying about how physical teams were, in the end they adapted because the refs punished the overly physical play.
Ryan Jack had to adapt his game to playing for us, at the sheep he could kick anything and not even think about it, then once at Ibrox he got bookings galore! He is now a far better player than the one we bought. Absolutely vital in the defence mid role, covering Tav and stopping attacks.
If we start booking at the first bad tackle, the tackles will subside, and the players can play the game with the ball.
This is Scotland’s Progres Nedercorn or whatever they are called? If they don’t take stock, then Rangers will be the ones hampered. We will continue this European adventure due to the fact that we are reffed to the point that we have no choice but to play anon physical football, and ironically Clancy and the other cheating fúcks have possibly helped us, despite their intentions!
Even the tinks are a good example, because they get away with half a dozen fouls before getting spoken to, when they play in Europe they get booked loads and give away free kicks throughout the match.
 
I get what you’re saying but is it not possible that these teams absolutely know they have to change their game because of the fact they get away with horrendous play against the only European class team, which is us. They have no real plan B so completely fail.
But they dont play Rangers every week there is 10 other sides in the league and if anyone on here has ever watched Utd they will know they do attempt to pass the ball and play nice football. Thats why Courts got a job elsewhere, its probably why they got into the winning position in the first place, i didnt see the first game right enough.

They also done well last season playing more cautious but i suppose last night was a cup tie and they felt they had to try and get back into it which resulted in being ripped apart and embarrassment. They have little or no euro experience and while Charlie Mulgrew does and is not a bad defender in our league, hes slow, really slow, and last night you seen why he suits tight spfl games or simply sitting in against the big 2.

They didnt go out to injure or hurt anyone they didnt even pick up a yellow card who would have bet on that ?

Folk are getting mixed up, the refs let some stuff go when these sides play Rangers as they fear the media and the influence Celtic have at the sfa.... they are not bad refs that have no understanding of how football and refereeing has changed.
 
Yeah smashing, bring in really strict laws on fouls tell refs to fire the card count right up, not as if that idea is coming back to bite us....
 
I said it on another thread but we really need both the capital clubs to be as strong as possible. There the two biggest clubs in Scotland outwith us and the mentally challengeds with the best facilities and budgets and usually the better players than the rest of the teams in the league. A motherwell or a Dundee United sneaking a European place does nothing to help Scottish football in Europe
 
It really isnt its a lot of nonsense these results have nothing to do with our refs.

There probably isnt a team in world football thats protected by refs the way Celtic are in Scottish football, it makes little or no difference when the play abroad.

Utd didnt make a hard tackle all night so how exactly is this anything to do with physical play or a team/league full of hammer throwers. If anything some aggression, spirit and defensive organisation is what they lacked.

Id also suggest the English premiership is far more physical than our league and its the league everyone seems to worship.

why didnt anyone praise the refs after the first leg which utd won or for any of the results Rangers get in europe ? why is it only refs fault for defeats ?

Union had a better first leg lead than Dundee utd, they must have folded at Ibrox cos they have crap refs Belguim.

No wonder the games a mess when folk that obviously know everything about the modern game(thanks to sky and bt) tell us the solution is simple.... treble Kevin Clancys wage and become the only league in europe that sends the keeper off for time wasting.
The ref point being made is twofold: The first is that aggressive over-physical play being allowed long-term (basically it’s endemic) reduces the chances of more technical players being developed in Scotland. For example we seen Barisic making the point that the similarly sized (in terms of populace) Croatian league is much less aggressive and more technical than the SPL. A similar sized league to Scotland but yet they produce much better home-grown players who are scattered around big teams in Europe.

Then we have the spectacle of the likes Nathan Oduwa being blootered up and down Scotland. This is not a league that takes kindly to younger players trying stuff like that. There is a good reason that all the better Scottish players nowadays are defenders or tough tackling midfielders. When was the last time Scotland produced a top level player in attack? ….hell even a player of the quality of Kent who was released by a premiership team? It’s fortunate that Kent was a bit more streetwise and older than Oduwa when he arrived - or he would have had any imagination/skill kicked out of him also - although they still try to this day. Luckily for us we can buy our way out of this problem.

The other point that they can’t play their normal physical game that lets them compete somewhat against us because of European refs is a lesser problem. Although there is no doubt you can’t play like you do in Scotland in that respect. Imagine Livingston with your typical European ref - ferfuxsaxe they would be down to 8 in the first half!

That wasn’t UTDs problem last night as it was too warm to go rushing around kicking stuff anyway. However the fact that they can’t produce enough quality was fully on show. Luckily for us we can buy our way out of this problem and get players to make up that quality gap with Europe.
 
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Apart from us, Scottish teams can't compete in Europe. The main component of their game is hammer-throwing, and when that is removed, they have nothing to offer, and a thrashing is the inevitable outcome.
I honestly believe that’s why we look better in Europe than in the league sometimes.
 
I was actually quite surprised how open Dundee United started that game. Look at the difference when they play us - basically playing for a draw and every man behind the ball.

Maybe they got a bit carried away with that home leg win.

It's in all our interests for these teams to improve because the thought of playing a dour battle most weeks is not something that any of us should look forward to virtually every week.

It also puts our recent results in perspective - we are the only Scottish team that can win games regularly in Europe.
 
There all an embarrassment all they care about is not getting pumped in the league, celtic are just happy winning games in Scotland, we need to keep doing what we are doing but also trying to win the league it’s that simple
 
We also need money orientated people who will look at the whole thing from a fresh perspective. People laugh at Scottish football, but this is a country where football enjoys a premium status; what is the best way to advance the game here which generates the most finance? The right marketing people should be sought; Rangers, for instance, has shown an example that Scottish football as a whole could follow.
The people running the game up here should have bitten the hand of Barry hearn we implied he had a few ideas to improve the product and money earned up here. Once again though we didn't take him up on the offer and we got left with regan and Doncaster who have both been a disgrace for the money they get paid every year.
 
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
All these diddy teams voted the blue pound out of the equation 10 years ago due to greed, jealosy and bigotry and the result of this is the state of the game financially in scotia land where half wits are allowed to make money decisions on behalf of all teams and they keep getting voted in year in and year out , when Rangers pointed out they are not fit for purpose what backing did we get, f uck all so i say to all these diddy clubs and supporters GIRUY , die ya bastards
 
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