Gerrard linked with move for Tavernier and Goldson
- Thread starter Bonnyloyal
- Start date
Trueblueal
Well-Known Member
Clement is on record as recently as his last press conference as saying first team players should never be running out of contract and it will never be allowed to happen again. Clear from that he's happy to flip players that don't commit or are no longer useful. Tav with 2 years left probably has another season here unless we get a big offer.
Who do we have with a year left after this season?
Who do we have with a year left after this season?
Bundy Bear
Well-Known Member
And our last period of success was?
sr1983
Well-Known Member
We haven't had what I'd class as a period of success since Walter Smith's 2nd spell.
Under Sir Walter 2007-2010 I would say. His captains were Barry Ferguson and Davie Weir. The success during that period was not wholly down to their undoubted qualities.
GBY74
Well-Known Member
He did pick up the trophy that mattered most in what was the highest pressure season in Scottish Football in recent times.
Spart7
Well-Known Member
Define success though. 3 years ago, unbeaten, record breaking league winning season, 2 years ago a penalty kick away from a European trophy and a Scottish Cup win, last season nothing so I agree that was unsuccessful on all fronts, League Cup this season already with another 2 potential trophies up for grabs. Knckout European football 3 seasons out of 4. Any other era in our history and that is viewed as a successful period.
If Clement somehow gets a treble then that would be 2 league titles and 3 Cups over a 4 year period. Is that then successful or unsuccessful? They'd have won 2 titles and 3 cups over that period the same as we will have in that scenario as St Johnstone won the other 2 available. Does that automatically make them unsuccessful too?
I think there are a lot of blinkers applied and teeth gnashed on here purely because they've been hoovering up trophies and regularly winning trebles over a long period of time and anything we have then achieved is automatically played down or undervalued.
Great, we won a league with no fans in and no pressure. Didn't follow it up though, they lost their bottle straight away when pressure was applied. No pressure to stop 10 in a row? Yeah, ok then. We only won the league Cup because Killie put them out and I don't care about cups anyway, I'm only interested in the league. Gimme a break. Yeah, a European final is great but give me the league every day of the week. Ffs, where to even to start with that nonsense and I've read all of the above on here over the years.
If success is now defined purely by winning every single trophy available continuously because Celtic have won x amount of trebles over the past decade and are close to overtaking our trophy count then the people believing that are simply going to be constantly underwhelmed and frustrated. Life doesn't work that way.
agentcooper
Well-Known Member
There is very little reasoned debate on Tav. He has been our Captain during a very lean spell for the club and so he (and Goldson) are associated with the years of failure, regardless of his own performance.
People make a spurious correlation: Tav has been here for ages...We've been shite for ages...It's Tav's fault.
A similarly stupid line of thinking would be "Butland has been in goal for every Old Firm game this season and we haven't won any. Therefore, Butland is the reason we don't beat Celtic."
To be clear, I don't think Tav is perfect by any means. I think he may be slightly on the wane now, and I wouldn't be against him moving on if we get good money, but the idea that every failure is down to him is total nonsense.
Virgil Hilts
Well-Known Member
It is insane that a lot of Bears feel that James Tavernier is the problem, if Rangers had ten outfield players with his qualities we'd be in a far better position.
Any other time in the last 35 or so years, he'd have been medal~laden.
James Tavernier is not the problem, and I for one would be gutted to see him leave Ibrox
Bear84
Well-Known Member
I agree with your wider point.
He maybe shouldn't have been captain, but there wasn't really a credible alternative for most of the time.
It's wild that people blame the guy who's clearly been our best and at times only player in the last 8 years.
BUT, I do think the last few months have seen a real slowdown in his movement and he's not getting younger.
This could be our last chance to get a decent fee and if it also helps move Goldson on then I'd let them both go if we could recoup anything north of £6m.
Herbie53
Well-Known Member
Less success? We haven’t been a consistently successful side in the entire time he’s been on the books at Rangers.
Better players than James Tavernier have left Rangers and we’ve survived.
We did win the Scottish Cup, how did he play that day? He was very poor from memory, as he was in the Europa final.What did you expect in 9 seasons, remember 1 in The Championship.... finishing 3rd behind Aberdeen on our return?
No pressure to stop their TIAR.
We also won a Scottish Cup, conveniently forgotten.
mentally challenged propaganda.
Business end of the season he's often poor, this season included when he's been terrible of late.
The highest pressure season, with zero fans to add any pressure? Sure it had meaning but it was played infront of no fans.
GBY74
Well-Known Member
I think you may be listening to too many Celtic fans as that season was the highest pressured season in many a year.
How much of an impact do you think 2 men and a dog at Ross County, etc have? Unless you mean our own fans at Ibrox which I'd a damning indictment of our supporters if so.
These guys have went and played in all kinds of big arenas all over the world.
The.lengths people go to to belittle the club's achievements so they can downplay anything Tav has done is actually shameful.
Basically anything he has done doesn't count.
Del
Well-Known Member
Radio Clyde / Daily Record / Run of the mill yahoo narrative.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
Indeed. I always wonder whether those spewing this nonsense are actually just fans of the paedos or whether they are just so gullible they have chosen to swallow shite.
Maybe we all dreamt there were massive crowds and high pressure games during the Europa league run and the games were actually behind closed doors.
graeme2519
New Member
I don’t believe Tav will leave, he is our Captain after all, but I could see Goldson being sold, think he is at the end of his time at us now and should move back to England or head to Saudi, hopefully we can get a good amount of cash for him.
Bundy Bear
Well-Known Member
Lots of ifs and buts in there. I don't do mediocrity and believe our trophy winning record over, say the last 5 years, has not been anywhere near good enough. If you're happy with mediocrity, carry on.
WLF
Well-Known Member
Or he’s just looking at it logically and questioning why a season with exceptional circumstances is the only season we’ve ever done the business, and something we haven’t come close to since.
Is it really crazy to suggest players who have questionable bottle found it easier not having thousands of demanding and expectant fans effing and jeffing behind them? That doesn’t need to be the only reason we won it, but surely common sense and all the evidence we have says it was probably a factor.
Spart7
Well-Known Member
The ifs and buts are only at the end. I'll reiterate. Undefeated, record breaking league title win 3 seasons ago, Scottish Cup win and a European final 2 seasons ago, nightmare last season, league Cup this season still with potential for a clean sweep. Knockout European football after Christmas 3 seasons out of 4. As I said previously, any other era that would be classed as a successful period and a million miles from mediocre. The early 80's were mediocre, from us returning until Gerrard's 3 season was mediocre but steady improvement.
You simply sound unjustifiably entitled to me as we are now at the stage where we are capable of repeated success moving forward and competing every season. They have had a ridiculous trophy haul for the past decade and a bit, probably the highest in any period in Scottish history, and far too many fans are expecting us to mirror that domination when it is entirely unrealistic as they are not in the position we were. We will win trophies, so will they. It was forever thus.
ronadamus_prime
Well-Known Member
We haven't come close to it since, because our recruitment in that time has been utterly shocking. Be that players or managers. We just haven't appointed the right people.
This messageboard has been routinely critical of our recruitment for years, but when it comes to discussions about failure and success, that discussion is constantly forgotten or sidelined. People either genuinely believe we've recruited well enough or they don't, I don't see how blaming two of our better players for failing to drag us over the line, is actually addressing the crux of the issue.
It's not Tav's fault that we're overly reliant upon him for goals and assists. It's not Goldson's fault that he still remains the best and most consistent defender at the club. Likewise, it's the fact we haven't addressed any of these issues since 2021 and that we've actually now got inferior players to the ones that won us that title. That is the entire problem. Kent is and was a better winger than anything we've got right now, Sima and Kent on the wings this season, then we're having an all together different discussion. Aribo, Davis and Kamara, all better midfielders than the ones we've got available to us now, why haven't we addressed that? It's been 3 years, and we've spent a lot of money in the process. Failure to build on 55, then failure to recognise that we failed to build, has led us to where we are today.
WLF
Well-Known Member
But surely the guy doesn’t deserve to be attacked for suggesting maybe the circumstances of that season were a factor? We didn’t start the following season particularly well either. What was it about recruitment then that was drastically different to the following years?
We don’t rely on Tav for goals to the extent people are saying anyway, he has a really good record even if you take away penalties, but really that stuff about being reliant on his goals is only because he’s our penalty taker. If Dessers was taking them would people be looking at his 25-30 goal tally and saying he’s been exceptional this season and we’re over-reliant on him? I doubt it really. Or say someone like Cantwell takes them and scores 12 or 13 of them, would people say he’s on 20 goals and needs more help?
ronadamus_prime
Well-Known Member
I didn't say he deserved to be attacked. I do however think that it's idiotically simplistic to claim we only won the title due to those circumstances.
The following season after 55, we recruited atrociously. The only player from that window that remains in our current squad is Lundstrum, I think that tells it's own story. No? Especially when you contrast that to our main rivals. What was so different, was we stopped improving on what we already had and filled our squad with project players. That's the problem, we ground to a halt.
Okay, I'll accept that penalties have bolstered his stats on goals. But what about assists? He has 11 this season, that outstrips any of our attacking players or midfielders, that's a pretty glaring issue we've got on our hands. Poor recruitment and injuries, have left us still reliant on our aging fullback for attacking inspiration. Cantwell could have taken all of our penalties this season, and I'd still be critical of the fact he doesn't impact games as often as Tav does.
My issue with the arguments around Tav, isn't that I think he's irreplaceable. It's that we don't have any player that has come even close to his level of influence. That's a recruitment issue and always has been.
Bundy Bear
Well-Known Member
Should have been more. Were in the position to win more but bottled it. Bit like this seasons title chase. Not saying we can't win it but should have been clear.
SuperGers07
Well-Known Member
Anyone heard anything on Goldson being injured? People saying he’s been seen wearing a leg support and may not be available for selection
basiltherat
Well-Known Member
Tav will be 34 / 35 when his contract expires
That's a very different situation than someone who is in their mid 20s
I'd hope we are not looking to extend people that age for 3 / 4 years
You'll end up paying a lot to old guys not able to play much in that case
Think it was Wenger who would only give players over 30 one year deals
That may be a little early but by the time someone is 34 then I think it makes sense for contracts to be no more than one year
Carlos Danger
Well-Known Member
A record breaking defender? Good for him. I’d prefer a record breaking club captain,laden with winners medals,but hey I’m brain dead,what do I know?
Carlos Danger
Well-Known Member
He’ll definitely need to change his game in order to prolong his career. He’s definitely not as mobile as he was,much more muscle on his torso too,he’s fast approaching 33 I don’t think he should be playing every minute of every game when we have Sterling there.
Carlos Danger
Well-Known Member
He’s definitely a big part in the mentality problem we have. Remember the white flag before hearts??? He’s been done by Hibs in a final,Hibs in a semi,Aberdeen in a semi,Motherwell in a semi,add in Celtic countless times,he must have serious scar tissue when it comes to getting it over the line. At st Mirren I’m looking at him and he seemed lifeless,like the pressure has eaten him up.
Cooper's left peg
Well-Known Member
"A period of less success".
What's this period we're in then ??
We're absolutely in a period of less success and have been for ages.
Personally I'm desperate for Tav and Goldson to move on.
Carlos Danger
Well-Known Member
The more I think of it I’m starting to believe we win 55 because the fans weren’t there. Him and Goldson struggle massively at Ibrox when things aren’t going well.The last trophy we won
Edit: In fact, I’ll go into it further.
55 season- 11 goals and 10 assists in his 29 league games
Scottish cup 2022- 4 games played 2 goals scored. 120 minutes played in both the semi final and final.
Scottish League cup 2023- 3 games played, 3 goals scored and 1 assist. Including 2 goals in the semi final and the goal to win us the cup.
Colinrfc2
Well-Known Member
You sound like a mentally challenged
I read your first post and thought you were being sarcastic saying you were brain dead and then I saw the second one.
I hope you get the help you need.
Flying_Scotsman
Active Member
Less success??? You mean finishing 3rd, as 2nd is where we've predominantly been in recent years. You happy with 2nd pal!! I know 99% of us on here aren't.
Did you just stop reading the guys post?
He didn't say "less success than we've had"
He said "less success than the fan base would want" and that the criticism would move onto someone else.
Too busy trying to dive in to show how staunch you are.
wee bud's pit boots
Well-Known Member
Since coming back up we've won just three domestic trophies out of the twenty-two we have contested. (That's including this season's LC obviously)
One of the most miserable periods in our history.
Flying_Scotsman
Active Member
Tbh aye I did stop reading at that point. Same as only read the first line of yours. I've an inflated idea of my own self importance and don't really have an interest in other people's thoughts and opinions.
WLF
Well-Known Member
This is why I think it’s a real mixed bag for me. I can’t say he’s overcome the adversity or the issues with mentality when you only have to go back a few weeks to a massive game where he’s clearly let the pressure and the occasion get to him in a manner that proved very costly. He’s had some real highs, and a lot of lows too, I don’t think anyone can dispute that really. What can’t be disputed is value for money and the level of effort given. What also can’t be disputed is he’s far from alone in not bringing the success required.
I stopped reading at the first line of yours as well.
It's a good job you don't have an inflated idea of your own self importance and are interested in other people's thoughts and opinions!
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
Our European progress over the last 6 years is far better and far more important to the club than winning both cups every season would have been. Unfortunately there's no medals to show for it though. I dread to think what position we would be in if we didnt it have the finances that 6 years of group stage football and then knockouts for 4 of the 6 seasons have brought us. That's be worth far far more to the club than domestic cups.
The irony here is if we had been shite in Europe and achieved nothing, but won all those cups then Tav would be more lauded than he is.
The only domestic trophy that really matters is the league.
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
Richard Gough of course never lost a cup tie....
Chapman billie
Well-Known Member
And? The pressure on that team and manager to win the league was immense. Gerrard and half the team would have been punted had they failed. Ten in a row would have haunted us forever. Indeed it may been a lot more than 10. To do it without losing a game was incredible and it boils my piss to see our own fans downplay it. The core of that team beat Celtic at Parkhead Hampden and Ibrox as well as getting results in front of partisan crowds all over Europe. To suggest they bottle it in front of crowds is utter garbage.
Chapman billie
Well-Known Member
He's also beaten Hearts in a final, Aberdeen in a final, Celtic twice in semi finals, Hearts twice in semi finals and Aberdeen in a semi final. Not to mention RB Leipzig in a European semi final. No mentality issues there.
They've bottled it again this season, Tav has been absolutely dire this last while when it mattered most.
ronadamus_prime
Well-Known Member
Almost as if pining the blame for failure, on one player because he wears an armband, is irrational and baseless nonsense.
Mentality hasn't been the issue in the last 6 years. It's quality. We've lacked quality. There's been countless threads doubting the quality of the team over the years. Yet, when we lose or fall short, the fans blame untangible things like mentality, bravery and heart etc.
When it's simply a quality issue, and it always has been. Our first pick 11 has, at times, been on par with theirs, it's our depth that has continually been exposed. We don't have the depth to play a 60 game season and on the rare occasion we have had it, we've had success, albeit it limited.
The assertion people make about captains, being the be all and end all, is nonsense. Gough didn't win titles purely because he was a leader. He had Goram, Hateley, McCoist, Gascoigne, Laudrup and Albertz to play alongside. Ferguson didn't win titles because of his excellent leadership qualities, he won them because like Gough, he played alongside some top quality players like Klos, Amoruso, de Boer, Numan, Caniggia, Arveladze etc. Tav has seldom played alongside guys who reach his levels, never mind the levels of those mentioned. Leadership can only get you so far. If you don't have the quality, no amount of leadership can fix that gap. I don't care what anyone says. The team makes or breaks the captain.
CapitalBear1973
Well-Known Member
Please explain how a quality issue caused us to drop 5 points out of 6 at a crucial point in the season against Ross County and Dundee. Do you think our players are of insufficient quality to win each of these games ?
A Magician Named Gob
Well-Known Member
Nobody really wants to admit it but the calibre of player on offer at Celtic also goes a long way towards how many trophies our team won back then. Likewise that goes for Celtic now having a stronger squad if a comparable overall starting eleven. I can't remember the exact stats but Goldson or Tavernier in making the most appearances for us has something like 10 extra games than Kyogo I think it was who has played the most games for them. Factor in most of those games being tough European ties that involve playing higher level players in more challenging games at home or traveling for away games and likewise, depth is the problem.
Every Rangers team in history has lost such games.
Jeez what a simple outlook!
Barry Ferguson captained us to third one time and he was an outstanding captain.
Barry also missed two penalties jn the one game as we laboured to a 2-2 draw at Dundee in the run in in 2003 when we won the title on GD.
