Morphed in to what we had become under Beale

[Superted 1872]

The uncomfortable truth is that Clement needs to be able to put his own team out before being judged fully.

When I look at the players he seems to favour I have more hope. More like Dio and Cortes less like Silva

 

[Dashboard Jesus]

The manager is as much to blame as the players, it's an uncomfortable thought for many posters but it's the truth.

How many managers have these players been through? Clement has made some mistakes without doubt but this core group of players are weak as piss.

 

[bluetonic]

When PC took over our expectations were that he could maybe win the 2 "diddy" cups and build from there next season.

He over achieved and got us in contention for 56. We didn't expect that and now we are on his back for not achieving it (he may by some sort of miracle).

He has made some mistakes but he is working with some dross and some shitebags. Lets give him the summer window and hopefully we will see improvements and can start judging him from there.

Hopefully he gets the funds required.

He has to or its more of the same next season.

 

[mark hateley]

4th manager they've done this to. They did it to Gerrard as well.

Losing to Hamilton at home seemed like a coup de grace on his managerial career.

We were lucky the Pandemic came when it did because the usual suspects were on the warpath to get him fired.

You seem to forget Gerrard and that stinking game.

Probably because he left us 4 points ahead and the current champions.

 

[MartinS93]

Worse than that, we've morphed back into 16-18 Rangers the last 2 games.

Think we all know how it ends from here.

 

[Johnny Yen]

How many managers have these players been through? Clement has made some mistakes without doubt but this core group of players are weak as piss.

It's a collective effort, players are massively to blame of course, the buck always stops with the manager though, he's picking them, he's organising the game plan, he's giving instruction.

It's clearly not working and he has to take a big part of the blame.

 

[sir_walter_smith]

Clemente is starting to look like the wrong actor in the wrong film.

Not buying that. The players have let him down whilst he's navigating us thru injury crisis after injury crisis. The systems he's playing, the players he's playing out of position is out of necessity IMO.

Last night the players looked frozen in fear of making a mistake. Athough Clement can do his best to motivate and give tactical instruction, at the end of the day the dressing room culture (driven by senior players) has likely had a big effect on what we are seeing.

Is Clement perfect? Absolutely not, he's made mistakes but the fact he took us into a title race with a group of inherited, unspirited players players has surely to be worth something. He and Koppen have a massive job on their hands but before that Clement has to attempt to navigate the last games of this season without the team being embarrassed. His conference last night was a symptom of that. Tough gig.

 

[Angrybluebear]

You seem to forget Gerrard and that stinking game.

Probably because he left us 4 points ahead and the current champions.

He left us with 13 wins out of 24 the start of the season, we should’ve been out of sight, celtic had their worst start to a season.

Folk forget GvB gained more points per game than Gerrard had achieved that season, we actually improved, just celtic did more significantly.

 

[mark hateley]

He left us with 13 wins out of 24 the start of the season, we should’ve been out of sight, celtic had their worst start to a season.

Folk forget GvB gained more points per game than Gerrard had achieved that season, we actually improved, just celtic did more significantly.

And let's not forget 10 man Malmo.

(I still think its ridiculous that we punted Colak and Sakala at the start of the season but that's another thread).

 

[GersFanHutch]

The underlying worry is that maybe we’re just bad at finding good managers.

 

[magoob1982]

11 players on the pitch not a clue what they are doing.

No Plan A never mind a Plan B

Substitutions for the sake of a change of player.

Pick on any player you like but the buck stops at Clement.

Standing applauding a free kick in the closing minutes that Tav blooters in to the stand.

This can't be on Clement this is the 4th manager we have had and the usual suspects down tools yet again, this is all on the players! It looks like something has happened behind the scenes and that has to be all on the players, they are happy enough to accept praise when doing well but don't seem to react well to criticism, which I'm sure the gaffer has gave them plenty of the past few weeks.

The buck stops with the so called leaders in the team, as much as tav has been great chipping in with goals he can't defend and costs us at the big moments.

Missing Ridvan is also crucial as he was brilliant up to the injury.

We had a clear out in the summer but yet again it was the wrong players that were shown the door, players like Arfield, Hagi, Kamara and possibly even Alfi would have thrived under Clement. Who knows managers sticking with the same so called leaders could have been the reason they wanted out in the first place.

 

[Bristol_bnose3]

Will we be having the same thread every year until every single first team player has retired?

Clement is not absolved of blame here but you ultimately we look the same because it's the same old faces doing the same thing again and again.

Clement is a far better manager than Beale. That isnt up for debate. The biggest issue is the tools he was given to work with.

 

[Lovenkrands Dug]

Will we be having the same thread every year until every single first team player has retired?

Clement is not absolved of blame here but you ultimately we look the same because it's the same old faces doing the same thing again and again.

Clement is a far better manager than Beale. That isnt up for debate. The biggest issue is the tools he was given to work with.

It's absolutely zero surprise to me. Unless people are implying Gerrard, Gio, Beale and Clement all have identical tactical styles and philosophies, what else is the reason for the core of this squad falling back to the same style of play EVERY season when there is the slightest bit of pressure?

 

[Blue Lou Boyle]

Will we be having the same thread every year until every single first team player has retired?

Clement is not absolved of blame here but you ultimately we look the same because it's the same old faces doing the same thing again and again.

Clement is a far better manager than Beale. That isnt up for debate. The biggest issue is the tools he was given to work with.

Why was he able to get so much more out of said tools prior to March?

The entire squad got a lift when he came in the door. There was an instant improvement from most of the players. He would make selections and subs during a game that would win us the match.

 

[brain]

It's the 3rd manager they have done this under

It really isn't. That's the FF myth of choice this week but it is simplistic nonsense. Goldson wasn’t even playing when we blew it last season. He had nothing to do with it. Almost the whole team from those seasons are gone, and more often than not our front 3 was far more to blame than our defence (as was the case last night). Only 2/3 remain and to blame them for this collapse is ludicrous. The answer to our losing the titles in previous seasons is much less comfortable for most on here. Celtic had a better team and manager. This season there isn't much in it but there probably just isn't enough quality and physical endurance in this set of players to maintain 3 points every week when we are absolutely injury riddled.

 

[RTD-BEAR]

When we were going the same way under Beale and Gio, people were a lot quicker to blame them. Maybe it's because people realise it's the player now, but he has to take share of the blame, some of his decision making has been baffling.

Beale definately was quicker but you could tell straight away the players signed and the removal of players from squad his way was going end up bad right from Newcastle game.

Gio was circumstances and luck of he hasn't beat psv and we go into the el we don't suffer the batterings we got and he prob gets another transfer window to add players

Wouldn't have made a huge difference Wilson will have signed diddies within the crazy recruitment strategy

This ultimately falls on the board they have severe mismanagement of the football side of things since 55

 

[Themaruso]

Why do we always play the same formation regardless who the manager is ? We never have a Plan B

 

[ccy55]

out fought / out played / out coached same all same all no leadership in that team

 

[Superted 1872]

Why do we always play the same formation regardless who the manager is ? We never have a Plan B

It's a good question tbh

 

[RTD-BEAR]

Not buying that. The players have let him down whilst he's navigating us thru injury crisis after injury crisis. The systems he's playing, the players he's playing out of position is out of necessity IMO.

Last night the players looked frozen in fear of making a mistake. Athough Clement can do his best to motivate and give tactical instruction, at the end of the day the dressing room culture (driven by senior players) has likely had a big effect on what we are seeing.

Is Clement perfect? Absolutely not, he's made mistakes but the fact he took us into a title race with a group of inherited, unspirited players players has surely to be worth something. He and Koppen have a massive job on their hands but before that Clement has to attempt to navigate the last games of this season without the team being embarrassed. His conference last night was a symptom of that. Tough gig.

He needs time but he is trying play a system that combined with the injuries our players can not play and are not good enough for.

Especially with no lb

He could easily tweak us to 352 with sima/matondo on the left tav on right and solid 3 in midfield with cantwell and who ever wins the lucky dip as striker.

Is not his team does need time but silva on left isn't working

 

[ARFC]

Same players doing the same sh!t, Clement has started some baffling starting 11s but it's like its built in to some of the core group of experienced players to just collapse & throw desire out the window. Doing the same thing & expecting different results, insanity!

 

[Let’s Gio]

Who else should he pick?

Raskin/Sterling in midfield over Lawrence and dowell who don’t and haven’t played that deep.

Mcausland on right - sima left

Balogun could’ve played a few games pre Dundee.

Even rice tbh.

 

[brain]

what else is the reason for the core of this squad falling back to the same style of play EVERY season when there is the slightest bit of pressure?

There has been no core. This theory is just nonsense. Last season, there was no late season collapse. There was just mediocrity with points being gradually dropped until GVB left. The league was gone very early due to Celtic’s form. Godson had nothing to do with this, so only 2 players can even be remotely linked to us failing last season. The season before, there was a mid-season collapse. Lundstram only played 27 mins of the three key games in this collapse that put Celtic top. Later in that season we lost pace with Celtic with Lundstram having to play centre back in one of those games. Again, only 2 players can be remotely linked to this mid-season collapse and it's not even the same two as the other season. To go back to 19/20 is just ludicrous. Completely different team. And our mid-season collapse happens while Tavernier is injured, and similar to this season, when he returns from injury we just can't turn it around. Yet again, only 1 of the “old guard” can be linked to the collapse and yet again, it isn't even the same one. This is ignoring the huge failings of the attacking players in those seasons. Quite simply, Celtic were better and we weren't good enough.

In conclusion, people need to stop peddling simplistic, reactionary nonsense.

 

[Jeepster]

Its a mess of a squad littered with players who are not very good. Clement can really only do so much.

Only in a title race because Celtic went into a temporary meltdown and had key players injured. This is where we are. The squad is not good enough to win games consistently when there is pressure applied. A lot of that is mentality, a lot of that is, they are just poor players.

 

[MrStruth]

11 players on the pitch not a clue what they are doing.

No Plan A never mind a Plan B

Substitutions for the sake of a change of player.

Pick on any player you like but the buck stops at Clement.

Standing applauding a free kick in the closing minutes that Tav blooters in to the stand.

Also to what we had become under Gio..

 

[FedericoNieto]

I’ll say it again also, as a support we are victims of our own ego and as a result we have missed out on some decent domestic talents in recent years who can honestly say that names such as Hickey, Ferguson, Dykes, McLean, Doig, Shankland, McKenna, Porteous and Nisbet would not improve that rubbish that we watched last night. I also don’t care what anyone says Derek Mcinnes would do a better job as manager, domestically anyway, although we need a “European” name with European experience for our big push in Europe.

We would be better learning to run before we could walk, ready for the abuse but I hand on heart believe Mcinnes could deliver Rangers a domestic title, one thing is for sure he has done something twice this season our last three managers have badly struggled to do and he has done it on a shoestring.

 

[AyrshireNoSurrender]

If the manager puts out three youths instead of Lunny, Goldson and Tav and its 0-0 he gets pelters anyway by same posters who are banging the ‘he picks the team’ drum

 

[Ubik]

even though we keep changing manager we seem to always be stuck with the same formation. Why cant we play 442 at times, especially when we dont look like scoring?

 

[IsaacClarke]

Pick on any player you like but the buck stops at Clement.

No it doesn't. If this was a one off and the players had delivered a few titles and constant cup success over the years then yeah, the manager should take the blame if that trend stopped.

Unfortunately for you blaming the manager, as its the simplest thing to do, doesn't wash with most fans who have seen what this squad has shown all too often over the years.

When they have momentum they are a very decent team, will pull out results that we weren't expecting.

When the season gets tough though, as every season does at points, especially the run in, where you need to fight for every point they totally collapse. They do it all the time.

The mainstays of this squad have unfortunately built a dressing room culture that does not react well to adversity.

The buck stops with the players as they have again let us down when the going gets tough.

 

[Tumbling Dice]

It's like the players comfort blanket.Sideways and backwards passes and let someone else take the risks

Exactly mate. It's ingrained into these players minds, players who have been here far to long. A broken, unsuccessful system.

 

[VGM]

Tav and Goldson should not be playing the games they have played.

King should’ve been getting game time at right back.

Sterling is a waste at left back, so he is a miss in midfield.

The Silva wide left experiment should’ve been binned a month ago.

We need legs in midfield Raskin gives us that, Cole McKinnon gives us that.

We are the easiest team in the league to play against.

Don’t start me on Silva. Genuine dislike for the guy

 

[LarkfiedLoyalNS]

If Clement continues with losers next year he’ll deserve what comes to him.

Get the serial losers and players not fit for purpose out of our club or terminate their contract, we can’t continue with them it’s clear as day.

 

[1BrianLaudrup]

It's the same group of players, with a few exceptions. The same group that have led the dressing room for years at this point. The same group who showed up to preseason games looking unfit and unable to pass a football, thanks to Beale's inadequate, arguably negligent training camp. The same group decimated by injuries (see Beale's inadequate preseason) for large parts of the season, leaving minimal rotation options and some players massively over-stretched.

A charitable explanation is that there was only so much Clement (or Guardiola, or anyone) was ever going to be able to get out of any squad under these circumstances, and now they are burst right when it matters. Less charitable is that too many of these players are not good enough, the dressing room leadership is stale and cannot be coached into a winning mindset at this stage in their cycle, and they've given up. The truth is probably bits of both, but there's not much Clement can do to stop the regression we've seen. What he can do is clean the place out, recruit well with Koppen and get a fresh squad of winners set up over the summer for a proper crack at the title that doesn't end in March 2025.

 

[prsoandnovo222]

This is worse than Beale

These players should be hounded

Is it.%^*&.We have never in the last 12 years been going into the split as close.as.we.are the now,the league was done by January under previous.still have hope and belief in clement ,could you say the same.about beale?? He needs to get rid of tav and goldson though.

 

[CaptainCourageous]

Is it.%^*&.We have never in the last 12 years been going into the split as close.as.we.are the now,the league was done by January under previous.still have hope and belief in clement ,could you say the same.about beale?? He needs to get rid of tav and goldson though.

The football we play is every bit as bad as Beale and GvB.

Same mistakes over and over, too pedestrian, route one football. If it's not going long, get the ball out wide and cross. Failure to break down the opposition, needless touches and passes in and around the oppositions area, no plan b. A lack of hunger, passion, fight and desire.

We almost conceded after 30 seconds last night, similar to against Celtic at Ibrox where they were 1-0 inside 30 seconds.

An unorganised mess all over the park. No shape, no balance.

 

[scottishcampbell]

Since the players always respond and play excellent to a new manager is clear we need a change of manager every 6 months

 

[Greggy83]

It's the managers faults for continuing with these players. If Clement doesn't get rid of them he will follow the fate of GVB and Beale

We will see in the summer if this is the case

 

[Lovenkrands Dug]

There has been no core. This theory is just nonsense. Last season, there was no late season collapse. There was just mediocrity with points being gradually dropped until GVB left. The league was gone very early due to Celtic’s form. Godson had nothing to do with this, so only 2 players can even be remotely linked to us failing last season. The season before, there was a mid-season collapse. Lundstram only played 27 mins of the three key games in this collapse that put Celtic top. Later in that season we lost pace with Celtic with Lundstram having to play centre back in one of those games. Again, only 2 players can be remotely linked to this mid-season collapse and it's not even the same two as the other season. To go back to 19/20 is just ludicrous. Completely different team. And our mid-season collapse happens while Tavernier is injured, and similar to this season, when he returns from injury we just can't turn it around. Yet again, only 1 of the “old guard” can be linked to the collapse and yet again, it isn't even the same one. This is ignoring the huge failings of the attacking players in those seasons. Quite simply, Celtic were better and we weren't good enough.

In conclusion, people need to stop peddling simplistic, reactionary nonsense.

You're kidding yourself on if you think Goldson, Tav and Lundstram aren't a massive reason this squad has such a shite mentality. Its incredible people still can't see it after all this time.

 

[Angrybluebear]

Raskin/Sterling in midfield over Lawrence and dowell who don’t and haven’t played that deep.

Mcausland on right - sima left

Balogun could’ve played a few games pre Dundee.

Even rice tbh.

Agree with all of this, plus

Leon King could’ve been getting minutes to keep Tav fresh or even at LB

King or Davies should’ve played LB v celtic and played Sterling in midfield.

The squad management/rotation has been atrocious to be honest.

Tav, Goldson and Lundstram in particular have been run in to the ground, not through necessity, but bad management.

 

[BrooklynBlue]

No it doesn't. If this was a one off and the players had delivered a few titles and constant cup success over the years then yeah, the manager should take the blame if that trend stopped.

Unfortunately for you blaming the manager, as its the simplest thing to do, doesn't wash with most fans who have seen what this squad has shown all too often over the years.

When they have momentum they are a very decent team, will pull out results that we weren't expecting.

When the season gets tough though, as every season does at points, especially the run in, where you need to fight for every point they totally collapse. They do it all the time.

The mainstays of this squad have unfortunately built a dressing room culture that does not react well to adversity.

The buck stops with the players as they have again let us down when the going gets tough.

Why hasn't Clement tried to reverse this trend, though - he's obviously aware of it.

When appointing a new manager, the expectation is that he'll get more out of the squad than the previous one.

Instead, he's made the same mistakes and we're now at a place where the manager is talking nonsense after more dropped points in an attempt to 'protect' these same players.

 

[Hazylight1989]

For me our main problem stems from the midfield, they offer very little protection to an already poor back 4, they are unable to take the ball under pressure from the CBs, they are a yard off it when trying to press and the passing is so poor that they are unable to sustain pressure and attacks.

Remember not that long ago we had Davis, Jack, Kamara, Aribo and Arfield to choose from - the degradation since then is absolutely astounding... Not one of out current midfielders would get near them guys mentioned above.

 

[IsaacClarke]

Why hasn't Clement tried to reverse this trend, though - he's obviously aware of it.

When appointing a new manager, the expectation is that he'll get more out of the squad than the previous one.

Instead, he's made the same mistakes and we're now at a place where the manager is talking nonsense after more dropped points in an attempt to 'protect' these same players.

Clement has though, he won us our first league cup in 12 years, something the previous 3 managers failed to do. Got us out the Europa Group and clawed back the points deficit he inherited. We are also 1 win away from another final.

For the first time in years we've managed to ensure there's a title race up until the spilt. Still in one I suppose but we aren't holding out much hope.

He has more than done his part. Not a single one of us though weren't worried that this was in the post. We have seen it for so many years now it surely isn't a surprise.

Clement can set up the team as he has been for the last 6 months but when players are so petrified to even pass forward then its clear as day its mentality.

The manager is now finding out exactly the type of culture that was created in that dressing room in the years before he took over.

 

[cranky]

The best thing Clement did when he arrived was to bring stability & simplicity to the team. 4-2-3-1 with two central midfielders, a number 10, two wide wingers and a central striker. McAusland emerged into the team as he gave us that width on the right we had been lacking and Sima excelled on the left.

Over the last few weeks it seems our shape has been dismantled as we shoehorn people into the team e.g. Silva with the likes of McAusland and Sterling (who was great in Midfield) now not in place.

Best thing Clement can do is revert back to that shape. If Ridvan isn’t fit and borna can’t be trusted then bring in yfecko to keep the balance. Bring back Balogun to bring that experience to the back line. Get Sterling into central midfield to stabilise the midfield. Mcausland back on the wide right and Sima wide left.

We seem to be messing with the side too much and none of the players coming in are delivering e.g. Lawrence, Dowell, Silva, Wright, Roofe

 

[Dean]

The people above Clement are not experienced football men and the players under him are not very good football players. It’s only going to go one way.

Definitely, it’s sickening. But the worrying part is when will the shit show end.

 

[HillsBill]

I said to the boy beside me during the Celtic game. We have regressed into the same system we had under Beale. The last two games we have been utterly clueless.

The same happened with Gio. Before him, the post-55 team went the same way. The football then under Gerrard was crap.

 

[superallys_lovechild]

Starting Silva again out wide.

A player who wants to come inside at every opportunity creating zero width.

Some of Clements selections have been abysmal.

If form doesn't pick up and we go out on Sunday he will be gone by end of season.

And how do you suggest we pay a £5m package to sack yet another manager?!

 

[HillsBill]

The simple fact is that the vast majority on here wanted to ditch most of this squad before Clement was appointed. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear so why should Clement take the flack for poor performances? Yes he may have made some poor picks, and substitutions, but the truth is this squad isn’t good enough so that matters not. He inherited a squad made up of signings made by 3 different managers who were already on the wane and were badly lagging Celtic

 

[Otis Blue]

Starting Silva again out wide.

A player who wants to come inside at every opportunity creating zero width.

Some of Clements selections have been abysmal.

If form doesn't pick up and we go out on Sunday he will be gone by end of season.

He won’t be gone at the end of the season. That would be totally negligent by the board and set us back even more. A new mgr would come in and give these a players yet another chance. Clement is the man to at least clear them out , how he replaces them and how they perform thereafter is what we fully judge him on.

 

[Skyy Bluenose]

The frustration for me is that when Clement came in, he made it quite clear that passing backwards would not be tolerated. We were still passing backwards last night in the 92nd minute.

 

[BrooklynBlue]

Clement has though, he won us our first league cup in 12 years, something the previous 3 managers failed to do. Got us out the Europa Group and clawed back the points deficit he inherited. We are also 1 win away from another final.

For the first time in years we've managed to ensure there's a title race up until the spilt. Still in one I suppose but we aren't holding out much hope.

He has more than done his part. Not a single one of us though weren't worried that this was in the post. We have seen it for so many years now it surely isn't a surprise.

Clement can set up the team as he has been for the last 6 months but when players are so petrified to even pass forward then its clear as day its mentality.

The manager is now finding out exactly the type of culture that was created in that dressing room in the years before he took over.

Gio wasn't given the opportunity with the League Cup. He did, though, win the only domestic cup competition he competed for.

I haven't seen anything from Clement that we didn't see in spells from Gio + Beale. That's my concern. It's also plummeted in much the same manner - and it arguably feels worse because we've handed the title to an average Rodgers team (a side we haven't beat).

We can find solace is blaming the players (again) but Clement was appointed to rectify the situation. The mantra of 'it's not his players' can only go so far.

Of course I'm not suggesting he should be sacked. I look forward to the Summer. But I think it's reasonable to suggest he's been culpable as well during recent times.

It'll be very interesting to see how these next few weeks go.