Possibly the worst example of cheating our game has ever seen on Saturday - Where’s the condemnation?

[GreigC]

The Assistant was not adamant of anything, he like pretty much every official in Scotland is scared to give us a decision. The ref looked at him, he looked at the ref both knew it was a clear penalty but thought nah I’m not putting my name to that VAR can.

From memory the Kent penalty that Clancy initially booked him for diving at St Mirren immediately after VAR came in stands out. It was as clear as day, and as clear as day highlighted a referee with an agenda. Also at St Mirren Park, Butland was claiming for a handball from the opposite end of the park, I was standing directly behind him.

I like a good balanced debate and as you are quite vocal on these types of threads you clearly must have enough evidence to back up your views. How many of the penalties awarded to us in domestic football, since the introduction of VAR, have been given by a ref or by VAR, and the same totals for penalties awarded against us ?

That actively proves nothing though. Other than incidents are being missed

You’d need a far wider pool of evidence, probably across the entire league, of penalties awarded by VAR compared to the on field referee

I wouldn’t imagine that were wildly away from the norm in that instance

Many of the penalties that we’ve been given, we simply wouldn’t have got pre-VAR… that’s probably a recurring theme across the league

Your shirt pulls against Aberdeen and Hearts, your handball at Livingston or the 2nd at St Johnstone. The pen/red at st mirren they’ve released the audio for, and he says immediately he doesn’t know what it hits… I’m okay with him not guessing and letting the tech do its thing. Seems others are less on board with that though

Kilmarnock and Celtic don’t get theirs at Ibrox pre-var either. Rugby park they got the Kilmarnock one wrong, and I didn’t even know about the Lewis Mayo one til the day after and I watched the highlights

Dickinson had 2 penalties in the Morton game by VAR. Ours I can’t recall, other than Dessers scored it - but theirs was for me, as blatant as the one we didn’t get initially in Perth

So yeah, frankly I don’t think we get a particularly raw deal when it comes to big decisions - just because VAR gives them, I don’t think we’re particularly often discussing blatant misses… just stonewall penalties in crowded boxes that are difficult to see

My issues with the refs lie far more in the game management aspects, inconsistent applications of careless vs reckless, time wasting and the odd occasion of early whistles on questionable decisions that then don’t allow the tech to get involved…

The Robertson one at the weekend is a prime example of something I’d like to see more of - compare against Dundee with Cantwell running through clean, a soft foul given before the ball hits the net. No chance to correct it had it been wrong, in what was a clear attacking chance… and again, it wasn’t a foul where we were discussing it being an absolute stick on

(Ps, I know someone who’s spoken to the ref about that first penalty against St Johnstone… he allowed himself to be incorrectly guided by a substantially more senior colleague… it happens, it was corrected, he learns, we move)

 

[EmperorPalpatine]

Alistair Johnston is a cheat. He slyly handballed it in the box against us at the beggardome, he put his arm out to stop a goal bound shot against Kilmarnock and now this. There have been other incidents too, all in one season

 

[Angrybluebear]

That actively proves nothing though. Other than incidents are being missed

You’d need a far wider pool of evidence, probably across the entire league, of penalties awarded by VAR compared to the on field referee

I wouldn’t imagine that were wildly away from the norm in that instance

Many of the penalties that we’ve been given, we simply wouldn’t have got pre-VAR… that’s probably a recurring theme across the league

Your shirt pulls against Aberdeen and Hearts, your handball at Livingston or the 2nd at St Johnstone. The pen/red at st mirren they’ve released the audio for, and he says immediately he doesn’t know what it hits… I’m okay with him not guessing and letting the tech do its thing. Seems others are less on board with that though

Kilmarnock and Celtic don’t get theirs at Ibrox pre-var either. Rugby park they got the Kilmarnock one wrong, and I didn’t even know about the Lewis Mayo one til the day after and I watched the highlights

Dickinson had 2 penalties in the Morton game by VAR. Ours I can’t recall, other than Dessers scored it - but theirs was for me, as blatant as the one we didn’t get initially in Perth

So yeah, frankly I don’t think we get a particularly raw deal when it comes to big decisions - just because VAR gives them, I don’t think we’re particularly often discussing blatant misses… just stonewall penalties in crowded boxes that are difficult to see

My issues with the refs lie far more in the game management aspects, inconsistent applications of careless vs reckless, time wasting and the odd occasion of early whistles on questionable decisions that then don’t allow the tech to get involved…

The Robertson one at the weekend is a prime example of something I’d like to see more of - compare against Dundee with Cantwell running through clean, a soft foul given before the ball hits the net. No chance to correct it had it been wrong, in what was a clear attacking chance… and again, it wasn’t a foul where we were discussing it being an absolute stick on

(Ps, I know someone who’s spoken to the ref about that first penalty against St Johnstone… he allowed himself to be incorrectly guided by a substantially more senior colleague… it happens, it was corrected, he learns, we move)

Correct me if I’m wrong but is it only 3 out of the 15 penalties we have been given in the league this season were directly by the referee and 12 VAR decisions ?

That is an awful lot of incidents to be “missed”

I don’t know the answer but do you know the last time Clancy awarded us a penalty in open play ? Both this season were VAR interventions and luckily VAR had just been introduced at St Mirren Park last season when he couldn’t wait to book Kent when he was clearly fouled.

 

[GreigC]

Correct me if I’m wrong but is it only 3 out of the 15 penalties we have been given in the league this season were directly by the referee and 12 VAR decisions ?

That is an awful lot of incidents to be “missed”

I don’t know the answer but do you know the last time Clancy awarded us a penalty in open play ? Both this season were VAR interventions and luckily VAR had just been introduced at St Mirren Park last season when he couldn’t wait to book Kent when he was clearly fouled.

But again I raise the point: the 1st one at St Johnstone aside, how many of them would you have “expected” to see given in real time. I exclude the St Johnstone one as it’s obvious it should have been given. The rest… well one at Livi was a handball at a corner a guy was jumping for that no one saw. The 2 shirt pulls I recall were on the referees blind side. I’d argue that 1 of 2 Clancy has given us this season was still wrong (sima vs Dundee at Ibrox), the other at Dens I don’t recall. Walsh at St Mirren said immediately he didn’t see the point of contact. McCausland at Livingston should have been overturned too IMO… that’s just the ones I can remember off the top of my head just now.

On a wider scale though, Of all the penalties given in the league this season, how many have been given by VAR compared to the total? Don’t just narrow it to us and them, it’s all the same referees, so how many decisions are they missing across the board

 

[Angrybluebear]

But again I raise the point: the 1st one at St Johnstone aside, how many of them would you have “expected” to see given in real time. I exclude the St Johnstone one as it’s obvious it should have been given. The rest… well one at Livi was a handball at a corner a guy was jumping for that no one saw. The 2 shirt pulls I recall were on the referees blind side. I’d argue that 1 of 2 Clancy has given us this season was still wrong (sima vs Dundee at Ibrox), the other at Dens I don’t recall. Walsh at St Mirren said immediately he didn’t see the point of contact. McCausland at Livingston should have been overturned too IMO… that’s just the ones I can remember off the top of my head just now.

On a wider scale though, Of all the penalties given in the league this season, how many have been given by VAR compared to the total? Don’t just narrow it to us and them, it’s all the same referees, so how many decisions are they missing across the board

So only 3 out of our 15 penalties have been given in real time by the referee.

I appreciate they can’t see everything but 8 out of Celtic’s 14 penalties have been awarded by the referee in real time.

Nick Walsh has refereed 4 celtic games this season, he has awarded them 4 penalties, 3 penalties in play, a 4th following a VAR review (oh and when on VAR he instructed another.)

Referees are using VAR to cheat the system, Walsh proved it at Easter Road, compare the penalty he awarded celtic at Tynecastle with what he booked Boyle for at Easter Road. Almost identical incidents.

How many penalties have been over turned by VAR ? So it’s easier to give a penalty to celtic as VAR are rarely going to challenge the referee but conversely don’t give a penalty to Rangers VAR then have a quandary did the referee not see it, did he see it, is it a clear and obvious error ?

Perfect example Walsh and Collum at the Piggery, take away the offside red herring, It is a clear handball in the box, Walsh gives it the Stevie Wonder treatment, Collum sits on his hands. No decision gets given.

The only impartial alternative view of it all is generally Sky Ref watch. ex Premiership referee Dermot Gallagher despite his leanings gives a balanced view. We know behind the scenes at Sky the production team is pro celtic so invariably every decision given to us goes under the microscope, not so much celtic.

Off the top of my head the McCausland penalty at Livingston is the only one questionable, although to balance it out we also had a perfectly good goal ruled out that should have stood in that game.

Even though it’s a smaller sample size they choose to look at. There are a list of decisions celtic shouldn’t have got, mainly in games v us.

 

[GreigC]

So only 3 out of our 15 penalties have been given in real time by the referee.

I appreciate they can’t see everything but 8 out of Celtic’s 14 penalties have been awarded by the referee in real time.

Nick Walsh has refereed 4 celtic games this season, he has awarded them 4 penalties, 3 penalties in play, a 4th following a VAR review (oh and when on VAR he instructed another.)

Referees are using VAR to cheat the system, Walsh proved it at Easter Road, compare the penalty he awarded celtic at Tynecastle with what he booked Boyle for at Easter Road. Almost identical incidents.

How many penalties have been over turned by VAR ? So it’s easier to give a penalty to celtic as VAR are rarely going to challenge the referee but conversely don’t give a penalty to Rangers VAR then have a quandary did the referee not see it, did he see it, is it a clear and obvious error ?

Perfect example Walsh and Collum at the Piggery, take away the offside red herring, It is a clear handball in the box, Walsh gives it the Stevie Wonder treatment, Collum sits on his hands. No decision gets given.

The only impartial alternative view of it all is generally Sky Ref watch. ex Premiership referee Dermot Gallagher despite his leanings gives a balanced view. We know behind the scenes at Sky the production team is pro celtic so invariably every decision given to us goes under the microscope, not so much celtic.

Off the top of my head the McCausland penalty at Livingston is the only one questionable, although to balance it out we also had a perfectly good goal ruled out that should have stood in that game.

Even though it’s a smaller sample size they choose to look at. There are a list of decisions celtic shouldn’t have got, mainly in games v us.

So they’ve still missed what? Close to 50% of Celtics penalties?

What about the rest of the league?

How many of the 8 that they did get given would be a “bad miss” if not given in real time? In fact, take it to 7, because the one they got at Tynecastle is ludicrous

Of the other 7, how many were debatable penalties? Of the 7 given by VAR how many really should have been given in real time?

All in all, I can think of 1 penalty that we’ve not gotten at all this season that I think we should have. Mayo’s handball at Kilmarnock is the only one that sticks out as a complete cock up