Tavernier needs moved on

legalbeagle said:
The argument that if you take Tav’s goals and assists out of the team that ‘someone else will do it’ really does suggest people aren’t watching us. A lot of those players have the ball a lot of the time and they don’t score or assist.

Maybe you guys will get your wish, and if you do, I certainly hope that we can replace both him at right back as well as his directness, goals and assists. My suspicion is that we will not know how good he is until he has been run out of town.
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Serious question mate, what do you think about tav staying on as captain next season, and leading Rangers through another league campaign?
 
Another defensive masterclass on Saturday. The old jog over to the winger, get skinned and cross converted for a goal.

I am sick watching it, so predictable and I fear for him against Maeda again on Saturday.

If we dont change it, we will keep reaping the rewards.
 
Can't deny he's been a great servant but his form has evaporated. Teams actually say in the paper they're gonna target him. Its past the point of no return now. In order to go again, we need to find a method of playing which doesn't rely heavily on the right back beeing top scorer as it's hurting us as we lose too many goals. We've been stale and predictable for a while and teams know it. We know it. Hopefully Clement addresses it.
 
Awaydays72 said:
Serious question mate, what do you think about tav staying on as captain next season, and leading Rangers through another league campaign?
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I wouldn’t take the armband off him, I think it would be demotivating. I come from a place where a team needs to have at least 4 or 5 captains on the pitch, the armband isn’t that important. I think that we need a leader in central defence, a leader in centre midfield, a leader up front and someone to play wide right. Tav continuing as captain wouldn’t be a problem for me if we did those other things.
 
I think people don’t realise the effect it would have on the fan base or relationship with the team to keep him and the team has a sticky spell (which every team has)

The fans reaction rightly is here we go again, another bottle job with Tav as captain, whereas with a new team and outlook the fans and team morale in a linked sense isn’t being dragged down with the history of repeated failures by the same team led by the same captain

His time is up, as is others, and if clement doesn’t do it then he only has himself to blame when the fans turn at the first sign of another collapse led by Tav as captain.

Thanks for the service, but we should be saying goodbye.
 
WarnbroTavernier said:
Absolutely, mate. That's what I mean. If Clement decides to persevere with Tav and Goldson for another season he won't make Xmas. It will 100% be fatal for him.

Picture this, if we lose at the weekend and we then start into a new season with Tav and Goldson then the support will have the knives sharpened waiting on the first point dropped. 100% certainty.
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Goldson getting hate when he's not even on the pitch, brilliant :D
 
mitre said:
Tav is off form at the minute, probably due to being run into the ground.

Guy has been in the running for player of the year every single year he has been with us.

Has hardly missed a game in his time here.

Since he has been here, we have had people wanting him moved on because we haven't won consistently, ignoring the fact that it's because we are massively behind that lot financially.

He is genuinely one of our best servants ever, hamstrung by the fact he has played in one of our worst periods as a club.

Some people just need to assume that is his fault, and have a scapegoat.

If we get a big offer from Saudi or the likes, then we should probably accept it as it's the last chance we will have to cash in, but he will be missed.

People are creaming their knickers at the idea of Jefte coming in. An offensive, defensively suspect left back. We should probably make it known that this type of player is not welcome and instead get them to sign someone a bit more like Flanagan.

The constant ridicule of Tav is tiring, yes, in the past few weeks he has deserved criticism, but he has been pretty much blamed for any goal we concede for years, regardless of if he was at fault or not.

He has deserved allot more respect than he has got here. He is the definition of a whipping boy, and is blamed almost solely for the fact we have been second in the majority of his time with us, when it's actually due to a massive financial gulf caused by us still playing catch up due to being relegated to the bottom division and our rivals being handed countless millions to build a gap.
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Agree with all of that, great post.

I actually seen someone blaming him for a goal because he misplaced a pass 40 seconds before the goal was scored. Thing is, Lawrence actually pointed where he wanted the ball to go, Tav passed it, but Lawrence and Diomande ended up leaving it for each other...still Tav's fault though.
 
Midfield General said:
I agree he has lost a yard but he is our top scorer and is also top of the assist table.Our other scorers are a loanee in Simah who is constantly injured and Dessers who is another many fans want rid off.
If we had better goal contributions from our midfield and a settled strike force that regularly scored then fair enough but until we do i think it is a bad idea to take his goals and assists out of the team,they far outweigh any defensive lapses he has on occassion imo.
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That tends to be a common theme. It was the same on here last season. The guys who got criticised more than anyone else were Tav, Sakala, Colak and Tillman. The only guys who actually contributed.
 
legalbeagle said:
The argument that if you take Tav’s goals and assists out of the team that ‘someone else will do it’ really does suggest people aren’t watching us. A lot of those players have the ball a lot of the time and they don’t score or assist.

Maybe you guys will get your wish, and if you do, I certainly hope that we can replace both him at right back as well as his directness, goals and assists. My suspicion is that we will not know how good he is until he has been run out of town.
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I can’t get my head around that at all. You really don’t believe there’s another player out there who could convert 75% of our penalties and maybe chip in with 3 or 4 goals from open play too?

I’m at a loss. But fair enough, I really hope the manager doesn’t see it the same way though or that’ll be 4 in a row for them and yet another change of coaching staff.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
I think people don’t realise the effect it would have on the fan base or relationship with the team to keep him and the team has a sticky spell (which every team has)

The fans reaction rightly is here we go again, another bottle job with Tav as captain, whereas with a new team and outlook the fans and team morale in a linked sense isn’t being dragged down with the history of repeated failures by the same team led by the same captain

His time is up, as is others, and if clement doesn’t do it then he only has himself to blame when the fans turn at the first sign of another collapse led by Tav as captain.

Thanks for the service, but we should be saying goodbye.
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It's not upto Clement to actually get him out the door. He can tell him he won't be featuring but 100% there is no way Clement will be doing that. After how many games he kept him in this year. Tav or Goldson don't need to go anywhere they don't want to. They may decide they will leave bit the manager or the club won't force them.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
I think people don’t realise the effect it would have on the fan base or relationship with the team to keep him and the team has a sticky spell (which every team has)

The fans reaction rightly is here we go again, another bottle job with Tav as captain, whereas with a new team and outlook the fans and team morale in a linked sense isn’t being dragged down with the history of repeated failures by the same team led by the same captain

His time is up, as is others, and if clement doesn’t do it then he only has himself to blame when the fans turn at the first sign of another collapse led by Tav as captain.

Thanks for the service, but we should be saying goodbye.
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Well all that is certainly true of fans with your mindset on the situation that's for sure.
 
Sooner he's gone and a proper leader comes in the better.

It's got to the stage that unless he scores a free kick or a penalty, he's a deterrent on the pitch more often than not. He gets torn to shreds in particular against them and has been terrible for months now.
 
Colinrfc2 said:
We are not set up to get goals from right back that's utter nonsense
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Exactly. We've been incredibly wasteful in front of goal this season. 20+, sometimes 30+ shots at goal in many games without anything like a decent percentage of those chances being taken. That's as much to do with Tav being up there in the scoring ranks as him being the one on penalties.
 
WLF said:
I can’t get my head around that at all. You really don’t believe there’s another player out there who could convert 75% of our penalties and maybe chip in with 3 or 4 goals from open play too?

I’m at a loss. But fair enough, I really hope the manager doesn’t see it the same way though or that’ll be 4 in a row for them and yet another change of coaching staff.
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Penalties yes, and his 3-4 from open play don't nearly make up for the ones he costs us from terrible defending. In particular against Celtic.
 
WLF said:
I can’t get my head around that at all. You really don’t believe there’s another player out there who could convert 75% of our penalties and maybe chip in with 3 or 4 goals from open play too?

I’m at a loss. But fair enough, I really hope the manager doesn’t see it the same way though or that’ll be 4 in a row for them and yet another change of coaching staff.
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Re-read this, spot on!
 
Blues and Royals said:
Tav is not a leader and has been woeful for months now culminating in that ghastly performance at Tynecastle but we have to hope he has one more glory day left in him for Saturday.
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Last game hopefully.

Chance to go out on a bit of a high and everyone goes on their merry way.

A mutual parting of the ways is the best thing for all concerned.
 
WLF said:
I can’t get my head around that at all. You really don’t believe there’s another player out there who could convert 75% of our penalties and maybe chip in with 3 or 4 goals from open play too?

I’m at a loss. But fair enough, I really hope the manager doesn’t see it the same way though or that’ll be 4 in a row for them and yet another change of coaching staff.
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As I understand it, he’s involved in about a third of our goals between scoring and assists, so that is quite a lot for one player and it would need to be reliably replaced just to stand still, never mind us actually improving,
 
legalbeagle said:
The team isn’t set up to get goals from a right back, but we are very fortunate that we do because there aren’t enough that come from others.
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So Tavernier does this without assistance from anyone else in the team? We aren't creating imbalances elsewhere to accommodate his unique statistics? We have whoever is in right wing effectively playing to cover defensively (I've seen McAusland slated on here previously for not doing as much defensive work despite our best run of form being when he was in the team through simply taking the ball and getting the team up the park in an effective and direct manner despite not actually being that great a player) and midfielders who spend a lot of their time filling gaps left by centre halfs getting dragged about opening up space that Celtic score longshots into us from almost every time we play them. No other team in the League gives them the time to shoot that we do.

When it worked it worked and I firmly believe Tav got us to the EL Final nearly off his own back and the 55 season before that he was at his peak, but he is now in decline and the team has to change its style to be able to actually win games against Celtic. It's an unfortunate ending but it is what it is, I can't watch us lose anymore trophies due to being literally unable to win more than two OF games in almost three years with one of them being a dead rubber, with the exact same kind of goals being scored against us each time.
 
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Neilston Unionist said:
So Tavernier does this without assistance from anyone else in the team? We aren't creating imbalances elsewhere to accommodate his unique statistics? We have whoever is in right wing effectively playing to cover defensively (I've seen McAusland slated on here previously for not doing as much defensive work despite our best run of form being when he was in the team through simply taking the ball and getting the team up the park in an effective and direct manner despite not actually being that great a player) and midfielders who spend a lot of their time filling gaps left by centre halfs getting dragged about opening up space that Celtic score longshots into us from effectively every time we play them. No other team in the League gives them the time to shoot that we do.

When it worked it worked and I firmly believe Tav got us to the EL Final nearly off his own back and the 55 season before that he was at his peak, but he is now in decline and the team has to change its style to be able to actually win games against Celtic. It's an unfortunate ending but it is what it is, I can't watch us lose anymore trophies due to being literally unable to win more than two OF games in almost three years with one of them being a dead rubber, with the exact same kind of goals being scored against us each time.
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I don’t think that we channel all of our play through Tav, but I do believe that when the team run out of ideas he is the one we all look to either to put in a decent cross or to hit a decent shot.

I understand that people are concerned about the defensive aspects, I don’t understand the need to talk down his contribution as an attacker. We would miss it because he contributes a lot going forward.
 
legalbeagle said:
I don’t think that we channel all of our play through Tav, but I do believe that when the team run out of ideas he is the one we all look to either to put in a decent cross or to hit a decent shot.

I understand that people are concerned about the defensive aspects, I don’t understand the need to talk down his contribution as an attacker. We would miss it because he contributes a lot going forward.
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Clement has clearly changed to inverted full backs, it suits Yilmaz but definitely not Barasic or Tavernier. Tavernier is now wandering about the middle of the pitch and it clearly doesn't work, no coincidence our form has went to pot since he introduced this.
 
Los Pollos Hermanos said:
Clement has clearly changed to inverted full backs, it suits Yilmaz but definitely not Barasic or Tavernier. Tavernier is now wandering about the middle of the pitch and it clearly doesn't work, no coincidence our form has went to pot since he introduced this.
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I don’t mind the general principle of it, but to do it when we don’t really have any fit wide players up front was an odd choice.
 
legalbeagle said:
As I understand it, he’s involved in about a third of our goals between scoring and assists, so that is quite a lot for one player and it would need to be reliably replaced just to stand still, never mind us actually improving,
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Yeah and that’ll be from taking the majority of our set pieces too. You put someone else in a team like ours that has as much of the ball as we do against weaker opposition and they’ll have good numbers almost by default, especially in the scoring stakes because we’ll still got circa 20 penalties a season, and even a moderate conversion rate will see you post a very respectable goal tally.

People need to stop trying to manipulate stats and ignore all the context just for the sake of defending the guy. If the guy was as good at defending on the pitch as some of the guys are on here at defending him then we might be champions right now. It would be much healthier for a team to worry more about creating a side where the bulk of goals come from attack and midfield, like other winning teams do. It beats this obsession with wanting it all to be Tav-centric year after year. It’s beyond daft at this point, he should be thanked for his service and the 3 honours he has helped bring, and sent on his way.
 
WLF said:
Yeah and that’ll be from taking the majority of our set pieces too. You put someone else in a team like ours that has as much of the ball as we do against weaker opposition and they’ll have good numbers almost by default, especially in the scoring stakes because we’ll still got circa 20 penalties a season, and even a moderate conversion rate will see you post a very respectable goal tally.

People need to stop trying to manipulate stats and ignore all the context just for the sake of defending the guy. If the guy was as good at defending on the pitch as some of the guys are on here at defending him then we might be champions right now. It would be much healthier for a team to worry more about creating a side where the bulk of goals come from attack and midfield, like other winning teams do. It beats this obsession with wanting it all to be Tav-centric year after year. It’s beyond daft at this point, he should be thanked for his service and the 3 honours he has helped bring, and sent on his way.
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This this this!!!
 
WLF said:
Yeah and that’ll be from taking the majority of our set pieces too. You put someone else in a team like ours that has as much of the ball as we do against weaker opposition and they’ll have good numbers almost by default, especially in the scoring stakes because we’ll still got circa 20 penalties a season, and even a moderate conversion rate will see you post a very respectable goal tally.

People need to stop trying to manipulate stats and ignore all the context just for the sake of defending the guy. If the guy was as good at defending on the pitch as some of the guys are on here at defending him then we might be champions right now. It would be much healthier for a team to worry more about creating a side where the bulk of goals come from attack and midfield, like other winning teams do. It beats this obsession with wanting it all to be Tav-centric year after year. It’s beyond daft at this point, he should be thanked for his service and the 3 honours he has helped bring, and sent on his way.
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38 league games, and he has double the assists of the next closest player.

I’m not manipulating stats, you are denying reality. The midfielders and wingers have every chance in every game for assists, where are they?
 
bucks72 said:
Another defensive masterclass on Saturday. The old jog over to the winger, get skinned and cross converted for a goal.

I am sick watching it, so predictable and I fear for him against Maeda again on Saturday.

If we dont change it, we will keep reaping the rewards.
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Saturday will be groundhog day for tav he knows what maeda will do but seems incapable of dealing with it.
 
Over 8 years ago this article was written. I read this and it reflects everything my eyes see when James Tavernier plays for us. The writer states that match was Tavernier’s league campaign in a microcosm. I’d suggest that match, 8 years ago, is his whole Rangers career in a microcosm.



“The former Wigan player had looked timid in the tackle, lackadaisical at tracking back, and completely unsure of his positioning and general wherewithal in a defensive sense. It didn’t really matter of course, as his positives against far inferior opposition, who eventually gave up the ghost, more than outweighed the negatives.
So why bring this up? Because that match is essentially James Tavernier’s campaign in microcosm. Almost a full-season on, and the defender still seems unsure on how to actually go about the business of defending. At times, he almost acts like a half-back from a bygone-age, or occasionally even an inside-forward, which is all well and good but not if such shenanigans leaves his side exposed when the team is on a more level-playing field, as he has done at times during the Championship and cup campaigns.
That’s not to say Tavernier is poor, far from it. His name would feature prominently on any Championship player-of-the-year shortlist, but the niggling doubt is that he can’t be nearly as bold next season. Sure, a more defensive midfielder to shield him will help, as would a tweak to the system in general, but Tavernier ultimately has to recognise when he should rein in his attacking tendency. Like the world’s boldest pontoon player, Tavernier’s only instinct is to twist, but sticking is not only prudent, it’s necessary. Whether he can learn that remains to be seen.”
 
legalbeagle said:
38 league games, and he has double the assists of the next closest player.

I’m not manipulating stats, you are denying reality. The midfielders and wingers have every chance in every game for assists, where are they?
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Probably feeding the ball out to Tavernier and watching him hit cross after cross into the box, hit free kicks and corners and all the rest? And yes, you are manipulating things though particularly with goal numbers, you’re trying to give off the impression that without him we’d barely be able to score any goals or create anything, but that’s just bollocks.

Barisic had as many assists than anyone last season, would you guys really go to bat for him like this? I highly doubt it. It’s also completely overlooking the fact that Tav will in all likelihood, have started far more games this season than any other creative player such has been the state of our injury list. He also tends to be the primary outlet for the side when we’re pushing up the park. That all has to change.
 
Could Tav play in central midfield??? Would like to see it at least tried.
Has worked for a number of players - Fernando, Jack and Rino to name three off top of my head.
 
WLF said:
Probably feeding the ball out to Tavernier and watching him hit cross after cross into the box, hit free kicks and corners and all the rest? And yes, you are manipulating things though particularly with goal numbers, you’re trying to give off the impression that without him we’d barely be able to score any goals or create anything, but that’s just bollocks.

Barisic had as many assists than anyone last season, would you guys really go to bat for him like this? I highly doubt it. It’s also completely overlooking the fact that Tav will in all likelihood, have started far more games this season than any other creative player such has been the state of our injury list. He also tends to be the primary outlet for the side when we’re pushing up the park. That all has to change.
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Barisic has had 3 assists this season in the league. (Ridvan has had 1, btw)

For what it’s worth, I’ve thought Barisic gets far too hard a time from us as well because more often than not he has nothing to pass to, our creative players in midfield have, for years, got away with it. If Barisic had similar assist numbers to Tav this season, I’d be giving him a new contract, as it is, his contribution has diminished so we should let him go.

The desperation to talk down Tav’s contribution or diminish what he does for us is just bizarre.

I can see why people have an issue with him defensively, I can understand some don’t think he is the leader they want, when you start ignoring reality about his attacking contribution, it just comes across like you blindly dislike him.
 
MancGer86 said:
Well all that is certainly true of fans with your mindset on the situation that's for sure.
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A fan who’s been let down in every single game going season back in the top flight with Tavernier as captain, at some point every fan should have a breaking point.

2nd is last in Scotland for us, and in every game going season the fans have had we have came second with some ridiculously bad crash and burn runs of form.

Every player has a shelf life at clubs, Tavs has come and gone and Goldson and others were a good couple of seasons ago.
 
WLF said:
Yeah, me and all the other fans that have seen sense. Ironically the scum fans you’re alluding to will be keeping their fingers crossed and he stays and we carry on building around him.
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Yeah they will be delighted that we retain a player who scores 79% ofhis penalties and has 9 goals outwith that and dont forget 12 pesky assists this season alone. Going by these stats he is the player most likely to score against them in the Cup final.Let us know when you have identified a player within our budget that would come anywhere close.
If you want an outright defender stick Sterling in with his one career goal and hope by some miracle our midfield start scoring.
 
legalbeagle said:
Barisic has had 3 assists this season in the league. (Ridvan has had 1, btw)

For what it’s worth, I’ve thought Barisic gets far too hard a time from us as well because more often than not he has nothing to pass to, our creative players in midfield have, for years, got away with it. If Barisic had similar assist numbers to Tav this season, I’d be giving him a new contract, as it is, his contribution has diminished so we should let him go.

The desperation to talk down Tav’s contribution or diminish what he does for us is just bizarre.

I can see why people have an issue with him defensively, I can understand some don’t think he is the leader they want, when you start ignoring reality about his attacking contribution, it just comes across like you blindly dislike him.
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What’s your reality though? That you don’t think other players are capable of converting 75% of our season’s penalties and chip in with a couple from open play? That you think it makes sense to keep doing what we’re doing and having it centred around an ageing full back? By the way, I said Barisic last season, not this season. He’s another who’ll have played a fraction of the minutes Tav has this season, that’s a really important bit of information. You can’t use numbers at face value as the base of your argument and ignore the fact that you’re comparing his numbers with players who will have played far less minutes.

It’s ironic because I’m giving you the reality around Tavernier’s numbers. You think that acknowledging the fact that lots of players can convert penalties, or end up with reasonable assist numbers from hitting hundreds of corners and free kicks is “diminishing” what he does, but really that is just the reality. If any other player is tasked with all that then he’s going to end up with more than decent numbers at Rangers, barring maybe direct free kicks which not every player has a knack for and Tav clearly does to his credit. But 8 years of this, it’s just ludicrous to want to go again, being lead by the same player, it makes zero sense at this point.
 
Midfield General said:
Yeah they will be delighted that we retain a player who scores 79% ofhis penalties and has 9 goals outwith that and dont forget 12 pesky assists this season alone. Going by these stats he is the player most likely to score against them in the Cup final.Let us know when you have identified a player within our budget that would come anywhere close.
If you want an outright defender stick Sterling in with his one career goal and hope by some miracle our midfield start scoring.
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Let Sterling hit the penalties. Im betting he finishes the season with a minimum 10-12 goals, and that’s if he turns out to be crap at them and misses his fair share, after 4 or 5 seasons he’d still end up with cracking looking scoring stats for a full back. Out of curiosity how much did the scum pay for their 18 goal midfielder? Go and have a look and then come back. In fact how much did we pay for Tav? What about our other most prominent star in recent years, Morelos? What you’ve presented is the same tired, lazy, and bogus argument the same people have been presenting of ages. It just doesn’t hold up at all, and it’s tedious.
 
Blues and Royals said:
Tav is not a leader and has been woeful for months now culminating in that ghastly performance at Tynecastle but we have to hope he has one more glory day left in him for Saturday.
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You might want to tell the players that as they feel differently. Whether he stays or goes, the guys in the dressing room everyone would love to stay (butland, sterling etc) all think very highly of him.
 
WLF said:
What’s your reality though? That you don’t think other players are capable of converting 75% of our season’s penalties and chip in with a couple from open play? That you think it makes sense to keep doing what we’re doing and having it centred around an ageing full back? By the way, I said Barisic last season, not this season. He’s another who’ll have played a fraction of the minutes Tav has this season, that’s a really important bit of information. You can’t use numbers at face value as the base of your argument and ignore the fact that you’re comparing his numbers with players who will have played far less minutes.

It’s ironic because I’m giving you the reality around Tavernier’s numbers. You think that acknowledging the fact that lots of players can convert penalties, or end up with reasonable assist numbers from hitting hundreds of corners and free kicks is “diminishing” what he does, but really that is just the reality. If any other player is tasked with all that then he’s going to end up with more than decent numbers at Rangers, barring maybe direct free kicks which not every player has a knack for and Tav clearly does to his credit. But 8 years of this, it’s just ludicrous to want to go again, being lead by the same player, it makes zero sense at this point.
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Our left backs combined play as many games, they don’t add up to his number of assists despite taking roughly the same number of corners.

However, I’ve got your opinion - he takes penalties, ‘chips in with a couple of goals’ and any player would get the same assists. You are entitled to that view, if he does end up leaving I hope you are right.
 
legalbeagle said:
Our left backs combined play as many games, they don’t add up to his number of assists despite taking roughly the same number of corners.

However, I’ve got your opinion - he takes penalties, ‘chips in with a couple of goals’ and any player would get the same assists. You are entitled to that view, if he does end up leaving I hope you are right.
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I have serious doubts about them taking the same number of corners, and they certainly don’t take remotely close to the same number of set pieces, many of which will be crosses into the box. And just generally the team doesn’t play to the left side as much as it does to Tav, he’s the main man isn’t he. And yeah, I’m unbelievably confident that we’ll certainly do no worse without him than we have wish him, domestically anyway. He had some brilliant Euro nights for us.
 
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