Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

Cambuslangger said:
I smelled a rat from the beginning. Lloyds calling time on a very manageable debt of £18 mill was the start of the house of cards. Then CW getting off with buying the club with someone else's money was laughable. It has been a total shambles and the Big Tax Case was all the while the wreath round our neck which scared off any respectable take over.
It's done now but some folk need to be accountable for their part in this. God knows where you start.
This club and current staff need to fight like never before to win this league and a cup if possible to ram it up them. It will be sweet. Let's go together to 55!
Click to expand...
The bank looked at Rangers as being a part of the MIH Companies which could be sold off. They were concerned about, among other things, the potential loss on the EBTs.
 
Brother Crockett said:
The bank looked at Rangers as being a part of the MIH Companies which could be sold off. They were concerned about, among other things, the potential loss on the EBTs.
Click to expand...

The mass hysteria caused by HMRC is what spooked LBG. They in turn forced Murray to sell otherwise his MIH empire was at risk. I’ve no doubt they sourced Craig Whyte, they would have to have done due diligence as it was their £18m debt at the heart of it.

Mass hysteria that HMRC are now admitting they got very very wrong.
 
Brother Crockett said:
The bank looked at Rangers as being a part of the MIH Companies which could be sold off. They were concerned about, among other things, the potential loss on the EBTs.
Click to expand...
Despite his oft repeated talk of his "stewardship" of Rangers, Murray tied Rangers bank debt into MIH's massive bank borrowings (hundreds of millions) which was a completely reckless thing to do. When MIH got into trouble Rangers was too. Then it was the potential huge tax bill that had the bank desperate to get Rangers debt repaid no matter the consequences.
 
aayjay said:
Despite his oft repeated talk of his "stewardship" of Rangers, Murray tied Rangers bank debt into MIH's massive bank borrowings (hundreds of millions) which was a completely reckless thing to do. When MIH got into trouble Rangers was too. Then it was the potential huge tax bill that had the bank desperate to get Rangers debt repaid no matter the consequences.
Click to expand...
It probably resulted in a lower cost of borrowing for Rangers, given the size and assets of MIH.

The tax case is what spooked LBG. It would have been picked up on their DD and there’s no way they’d have wanted to take the risk of the case being lost.

The real issue here is the amount HMRC pursued and the influence that had on potential buyers.
 
aayjay said:
Despite his oft repeated talk of his "stewardship" of Rangers, Murray tied Rangers bank debt into MIH's massive bank borrowings (hundreds of millions) which was a completely reckless thing to do. When MIH got into trouble Rangers was too. Then it was the potential huge tax bill that had the bank desperate to get Rangers debt repaid no matter the consequences.
Click to expand...
Could it have been individual Bankers such as Manus Fullerton who saw an opportunity to put a knife into us even though we were hitting targets to vastly reduce the debt to LBG?
 
Ricksen said:
I’m being told (by our detractors obviously) that the only reason the bill has been slashed is because it’s no longer economically viable for them to continue pursuing it, not that the original figure was actually wrong.
Click to expand...

I've heard this a few times today from that lot but put it this way if we are the test case for this ebt stuff then no way will HMRC concede to anything unless they know they are wrong, otherwise the precedent has been set when they challenge other who have used ebts
 
Last edited:
Snoopproddiedogg said:
I've heard this a few times today from that lot but put it this way if we are the test case for this ebt stuff then no way will HMRC concede to anything unless they know they are wrong, otherwise the precedent has been set when they challenge others.
Click to expand...

Absolute nonsence to suggest this, however 1 paper the scotsman is going with this from a tax expert whilst another the herald is blaming the tax man from another tax expert.
 
Snoopproddiedogg said:
Sorry mate what's nonsense? What that mob are saying?
Click to expand...

ye pal, nonsense to suggest that hmrc just drop penalties because they think there is not enough in the kitty. If you read heralds article today, surely this makes more sense than the article in the scotsman (and the unwashed hype) that has went along with the low kitty story.
 
Am I way off the mark (or blue tinted here) but have HMRC ever looked into football clubs that have major investors or shareholder involved in the Panama thing?
 
RandyMac said:
Did Murray & co know the figure when they sold to Whyte though?
Click to expand...

there were quotes as high as £140m depending on who you believed. Turns out those included fines that were unjust. It was scaremongering that everyone jumped into bed with. HMRC have a lot to answer for even if the more conservative figure of 50% less were to be believed.

Herald running with the word grossing up in todays paper

quote

"Stephen Outhwaite, a former senior tax inspector specialising in investigation and regulatory issues said that 'grossing up' should not have been applied to staff and players and should only apply to directors if they are unable to make good the income tax paid by the company. "

t
 
Last edited:
Couple of years ago me and the Mrs were on a cruise and were sharing a table in one of the bars with another couple.They were English and I got the usual questions about what you do and who do you support,of course I said I was a rangers man.It turns out he worked for HMRC and he launched into our situation with ebts.He said the view from HMRC was "we have got a big one here and we are not letting it go" i didn't want to discuss it with him and changed the subject,when I look back now I wish I had pressed him on it to see what info i could have got.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
Absolute nonsence to suggest this, however 1 paper the scotsman is going with this from a tax expert whilst another the herald is blaming the tax man from another tax expert.
Click to expand...

Their tax case is an idiot then.

Look at it logically: HMRC have to recoup as much as possible. There is a set amount of cash in the oldco pot. The higher the debt to HMRC, the more of that pot they get. If they voluntarily waive some of the debt, their percentage of the over-all debt reduces and this in turn reduces the amount they receive.

So a tax expert is saying to a paper that they have simply waived money they did not think they would get resulting in them getting less of the available cash from the liquidation? And the paper actually went to print with that illogical bullshit?

I am a bit of a mong who cannot manage a piggy-bank, let alone tax affairs and I can see the great big reality-gap in the ‘expert’s’ logic.
 
TAXMAN BLUE US APART Rangers fan group demands public inquiry into ‘£50m HMRC blunder’
  • Rebecca Gray
  • 14 Nov 2019, 23:42
  • Updated: 14 Nov 2019, 23:46
RAGING Rangers fans have demanded a public inquiry into a ‘taxman blunder’ said to have overestimated the club’s HMRC debt by up to £50million.
Supporters group Sons of Struth hit out amid claims the alleged mistake caused the Gers’ collapse in 2012.
3
Fans was independent probe into alleged HMRC 'blunder'Credit: Keith Campbell - The Sun Glasgow
It followed claims in The Times yesterday that HMRC was understood to have accepted they had overstated their claims against the oldco club — which at one point totalled more than £90million.
The bulk of this was related to Ibrox chiefs’ use of controversial Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) to pass cash to players and staff.
A Sons of Struth spokesman said: “Many fans are angry at this news.
EBT expert says HMRC hasn’t ‘blundered’, Rangers Oldco isn’t due money and taxman didn’t cause liquidation
“But some have been angry for years over the way this case was handled from the onset. Someone, somewhere wanted to attack Rangers.

“A public inquiry is needed to assess why one club was held up to so much scrutiny while others were ignored. Why was so much public money spent pursuing a business that was in administration when tens of millions of pounds could have been saved?
“Who made the decision to go after Rangers? Someone must be getting worried about shouldering the blame for this expensive witch hunt that appears to be driven by hatred of a club. No wonder the Bears are angry.”
3
Craig Whyte was cleared of fraudulent takeover in 2017Credit: PA:press Association
Craig Whyte, 48, paid Sir David Murray, 68, the token sum of £1 in 2011 to take over Rangers. But they plunged into administration and liquidation the following year.
Yorkshire businessman Charles Green, 65, left, led a consortium that paid £5.5million for the assets of the club, which started the 2012-13 season in the Third Division.

Ex-Ibrox chairman John McClelland said if the tax bill in 2011 had been “at the level now reported” there would have been “more potential buyers” for the club.
He added: “In my opinion, the outcome would have been different.”
Finance guru John Cairns was a tax director with BDO when they liquidated Gers’ oldco. He said: “It’s a great surprise that the big tax case seemed to involve £70million and we’re now down to £20million.

RELATED STORIES

MORE MORELOS
Rangers ace Alfredo Morelos' wife Yesenia 'is pregnant with first child'


MOR TO PROVE
Edouard might not get as many as Morelos but he scores big goals, says Hartson


LEGAL FIGHT
Firm suing Gers over Ibrox Disaster tribute to have full hearing of £1.3m claim


CASH DROP
Rangers players 'have EBT penalties wiped out' over HMRC tax bill


GERS BOMBSHELL
Taxman's £50m 'blunder' blamed for Rangers going bust as final bill slashed


REVEALED
AN ISSUE OF TRUST
What's an EBT, which players and staff got one and why did club use them?



“I’m surprised that someone at the time didn’t check the figures.”
The legal dispute with HMRC has eaten into the amount recouped by Gers’ creditors — who appear likely to get back just a few pence for every pound they were owed.
By April 2018 BDO had brought in £29.8million of revenue and paid out £17.9million — including its own fees of £4.6million.
A BDO spokesman said: “Our tax specialists have been negotiating with HMRC over the size of the tax bill. There is no final decision, negotiations are ongoing, and we expect a resolution of this in 2020.”
3
David Murray sold the club to Whyte for £1 in 2011Credit: Reuters
Sam Packer, of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said: “Many people have themselves been on the receiving end of unnecessary and intrusive HMRC blunders. When you’re talking about millions of pounds, the taxman has to be extra careful not to get his maths wrong.”
An HMRC spokesman said: “We don’t comment on identifiable businesses. HMRC has always been clear that disguised remuneration is a form of tax avoidance.”
 
HMRC now tweeting that they never made a mistake when calculating how much the bill for the big tax case should have been. This is going to be another long and messy battle in the courts between a lot of different parties.
 
sonofbunk said:
If I’m being honest the only thing I’m interested in all of this is getting the ‘leak’ who manipulated the situation exposed and hounded for the bigot they are.

No amount of money gained from legal against HMRC brings back 10 deducted points, eradicates defeats to Alloa, re-employed lost staff.
Click to expand...

Think there’s a name on the other thread mate.
 
That’ll be be why they’ve sent letters to players who had EBT’s saying there now won’t be any liabilities that need addressing then....
 
Statement from HMRC:

“As widely reported today and to clarify: HMRC won against Rangers’ tax avoidance in the Supreme Court, and did not miscalculate anything.....”
 
I’ve had a thought about how this story broke and tbh I don’t think it’s in our long term favour. As pointed out by BDO the end figure is still to be decided and any concessions HMRC made might be reigned back on , as reputations are protected. A beast ( corrupt as it is) has been angered and its pretty much unanswerable in its activities. Ac I thought, pessimistic as I am, this will just be a doubling down of Rangers bad. I feel we’ve been played again for column issues.
 
RandyMac said:
Did Murray & co know the figure when they sold to Whyte though?
Click to expand...
IIRC the deal was 1 GBP. There was 18 m of debt to be paid, plus agreement to take on all of the Tax liability. Again, IIRC, the MIH/Rangers board couldn't believe that Whyte didn't seem interested in that and absolved MIH of any of the liability. Murray was looking for something for his shares, but I think that Whyte ended up paying nothing on the agreement he looked after the tax liability he found during his "due diligence"

But to answer your question, i'd think the answer is no. Again going from memory, but the amount thrown in to the CVA pot was a figure from Duff and Phelps. Acting upon some facade of prudence.
 
Southsideblueblood said:
I’ve had a thought about how this story broke and tbh I don’t think it’s in our long term favour. As pointed out by BDO the end figure is still to be decided and any concessions HMRC made might be reigned back on , as reputations are protected. A beast ( corrupt as it is) has been angered and its pretty much unanswerable in its activities. Ac I thought, pessimistic as I am, this will just be a doubling down of Rangers bad. I feel we’ve been played again for column issues.
Click to expand...
There's literally quotes from ex-chairman John McClelland though about the figures involved.
 
Southsideblueblood said:
I’ve had a thought about how this story broke and tbh I don’t think it’s in our long term favour. As pointed out by BDO the end figure is still to be decided and any concessions HMRC made might be reigned back on , as reputations are protected. A beast ( corrupt as it is) has been angered and its pretty much unanswerable in its activities. Ac I thought, pessimistic as I am, this will just be a doubling down of Rangers bad. I feel we’ve been played again for column issues.
Click to expand...

Nope. Things are already in motion mate. Theyve sent out the letters to the players who received EBTS that they wont be receiving the penalties. This cant be undone and sends a clear message that they are now heavily backtracking.

They are now in the spin stage and trying to set the scene. This is all a pre-amble to what they know is going to be a lengthy and messy legal battle. Make no mistake, they know fine well they are in the shit.
 
YoungGer97 said:
Nope. Things are already in motion mate. Theyve sent out the letters to the players who received EBTS that they wont be receiving the penalties. This cant be undone and sends a clear message that they are now heavily backtracking.

They are now in the spin stage and trying to set the scene. This is all a pre-amble to what they know is going to be a lengthy and messy legal battle. Make no mistake, they know fine well they are in the shit.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you have written but they are quite literally a mafia that makes up rules and gets away with it. I really struggle to see a scenario that rules in our favour. The fact that we won the case twice yet they got it eventually tells me they hold the strings of power. You can cast iron guarantee that anything they earlier agreed will be rewritten. Worse still this has the backing of a conspiracy. As I say , we never win. Sports Direct , tax cases, the perpetrators brought to justice .... we just wont be allowed to.
 
Bobans27 said:
That’ll be be why they’ve sent letters to players who had EBT’s saying there now won’t be any liabilities that need addressing then....
Click to expand...

Nenhuma responsabilidade de EBT, isso é um alívio ........
_56968942_931788.jpg
 
HenningBerg said:
Its HMRCs official twitter account .

They are merely trying to control the narrative . As will the lackeys in the Scottish media .
Click to expand...

Exactly. The media and tims will be lapping it up as well. The ONLY way to bring the whole stinking thing down and blow it open in one hit - HMRC, the Scottish Media, the politicians/bloggers/journalists, everyone involved - is to do it through the courts and prove that we are in the right, once and for all.
 
Why send a tweet out an hour ago to deny the story? Surely they would have released an official response to the media about this & not a tweet at 11.30pm. Just seems odd time to deny such a story & to do it on Twitter & not an official press release.
 
At ten past 11 on a Thursday night some (prob a Scottish Pape) wrote that twitter message given they had all day and missed first editions. Look at other messages on that page how they are written. Given the hundred papes comments within first hour something stinks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Latest posts

Back
Top