Why does every poor result get blamed on Tav?

TriggersBroom said:
genuinely baffling.

How anyone could watch tonight and believe Tav is the problem is beyond me.

We had a woeful midfield 3 that Dundee walked through at times which happened at the weekend as well. Lundstram and Lawrence barely got beyond jogging pace tonight.

We have multiple forward players who struggle to create and stick the ball in the net. In January many felt we needed to sign a goalscorer and that’s now coming back to bite us on the arse.

Silva, Matondo are useless. Roofe is like an old cripple and Dessers is just woeful.

Goldson and Souttar are a bombscare partnership.

Tav has flaws, no arguments there. If he didn’t then he’d be playing at a far higher level.

But the amount of unfair criticism towards him is genuinely baffling.

“He goes hiding” - utter shite. No matter how bad he’s playing or the team is playing, he always shows for the ball and tries to drive us forward.

“He’s a bottle merchant” - utter shite. Lost count how many times he’s stepped up in pressure situations/moments in massive games to deliver an assist/free kick/goal. Hardly the signs of a bottler.

“he’s no a captain” - two world class players and captains in GVB and SG sung his praises as a captain and player but what do they know. All because he doesn’t scream and shout and grab teammates by the throat on the park.

He was our biggest contributor in reaching the Europa league final, top scorer in the competition scoring many pressure penalties including leading in the shootout with the first penalty. Almost won the thing had it not been for Ramsay.

Stepped up in the league cup final and regularly in the 55 season.

The trophy count since he’s been here hasn’t been good enough but it’s a collective team issue rather than a Tav issue. And the first few years he was here is hardly a stick to beat him with given the shite surrounding him and the circus we had in the dugout until Gerrard arrived.

If fans genuinely believe getting rid of Tav will result in our defence being solid and midfield/strikers making up Tav’s numbers and us winning everything in sight, it’s delusional IMO. And only when he leaves will we realise just how much he brings to the table.

We’ve far bigger problems in the team to address than Tav.
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I actually think this is a very decent post with a lot of good points.

I've been guilty of calling the guy a bottle merchant which is, perhaps, unfair looking at things in the cold light of day. His defending has always been questionable but like you say, he's dug us out the shite many a time.

But I do overall believe his time is up and he needs moved on along with a load of others.
 
If Tav had any sense he would have strolled into the sunset after 55/Seville but he ain’t daft he ain’t getting a good wage anywhere else! All them crazy stats but no one comes in for him, Even lazy journalists don’t link him to clubs
 
SIRBLUE said:
A bizarre comment.
John Greig and Richard Gough and Barry Ferguson only wore the armband as an administrative requirement?
Stevie G at Liverpool just ticking a box?
Sir Alex to Willie Miller or Roy Keane, "Here, shove this armband on, it doesn't really mean anything, but somebody's got to do it."
I think I've spotted a flaw in your argument
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Ironically you mention SG, a man that felt Tav was worthy of being captain …
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Surely the proof is in the pudding. It's been an ongoing issue for years. When the going gets tough where are the leaders?

Nowhere to be seen. Tavernier is supposed to be one of our leaders.
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It's not really. The players we have just aren't good enough as a group to maintain a level of playing performance over a season to win the title, that is fact.

Making stuff up that he's not able to motivate the players is emotional nonsense unless there has been a dressing room revolt or players have come out and said so.
 
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I think we rely on Tav too much - and that includes the rest of the team. When he's playing well he contributes with assists and goals, and we accept the occasional mistake from him at the back (plus Goldson regularly bails him out).

Tav's seriously off form at the moment, and nobody else has really stepped up to fill the gap. He stands out more as he doesn't hide - even when off form - so when there's no end product from him it's more obvious.
 
Tav has been ran into the ground carrying this team for years.
He’s a legend when he’s scoring and winning us games but the fall guy when it goes tits up.
Do I think he is captain material? No and that’s not his fault.
Sick of listening to his shitty post match interviews etc.
Tav has been playing alongside dross year after year and to me doesn’t deserve the flack he gets. Yes we are angry but Tav is not the major problem.
Yes I think it’s time he moved on and took Goldson and Lundstram so far to %^*&.
Ultimately it’s the lack of quality in our squad that has been our downfall yet again.
 
Definitely, this crap about his goals is tedious. I was looking there and Alan Hutton scored 2 goals in 6 years with us. And a loser like tavernier will be in the hall of fame forever because he takes penalties which should never be his job anyway.
 
Without reading the responses: he is captain and when the entire team loses belief and desire at the same sort of time every season, that's a leadership and morale issue.

He also is really poor defensively.

Albeit excellent going forward and on set pieces.
 
People that are so far gone on him and actually make snide comments about his goals or 'stats' as they put it shouldn't be allowed a mobile phone. Absolutely mental
 
TriggersBroom said:
He should have done better but 99/100 that ball deflects back to the keeper or out of the park.

It happened after 20 seconds. We played a further 95 or so minutes where we had more than enough chances to win the game. Was it his fault Goldson thought he was a keeper for the umpteenth time?

He stepped up again with a pressure penalty to get us back into the game, bottle merchant though.
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The reply of someone who hasn't played or understands football.
We went into that game with the upper hand, 50,000 bears, their influential captain on the bench and an early-ish goal from us and I'm sure we'd have run all over them.
The Manager would have worked all week on this and within 21 seconds the captain fucked up, they scored and the whole day changed and so did the title race.
We lost the initiative, the impetus and let them off the hook again.
The pressure on them was off and they could have scored more in the first half.
You dont get it.
 
Dean said:
Definitely, this crap about his goals is tedious. I was looking there and Alan Hutton scored 2 goals in 6 years with us. And a loser like tavernier will be in the hall of fame forever because he takes penalties which should never be his job anyway.
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It does become tedious,

It is often referenced, his goal return, and it is fantastic. He has scored more than our midfield amazing, but, he has scored 15 penalties this season, you could feasibly make a case for every player in our squad had they done that.

Had Dessers taken penalties for us this season, and scored at the same rate he has and the same rate Tavernier has from penalties he would have scored 32 goals

Does that then mean he is an absolute success, even if every other element of his game remained the same?

If all people could say about Dessers was 32 goal season, how can anyone dare say he had been poor despite so many clear flaws in his game?

Lundstram would be a 17 goal midfielder had he scored penalties at the same rate, how could anyone say he had been poor despite flaws in his game?

Barisic could have been a 16 goal LB, what a return for a fullback, he would surely need a contract extension? Even if every other asset and return from him this season had remained the exact same?
 
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TriggersBroom said:
genuinely baffling.

How anyone could watch tonight and believe Tav is the problem is beyond me.

We had a woeful midfield 3 that Dundee walked through at times which happened at the weekend as well. Lundstram and Lawrence barely got beyond jogging pace tonight.

We have multiple forward players who struggle to create and stick the ball in the net. In January many felt we needed to sign a goalscorer and that’s now coming back to bite us on the arse.

Silva, Matondo are useless. Roofe is like an old cripple and Dessers is just woeful.

Goldson and Souttar are a bombscare partnership.

Tav has flaws, no arguments there. If he didn’t then he’d be playing at a far higher level.

But the amount of unfair criticism towards him is genuinely baffling.

“He goes hiding” - utter shite. No matter how bad he’s playing or the team is playing, he always shows for the ball and tries to drive us forward.

“He’s a bottle merchant” - utter shite. Lost count how many times he’s stepped up in pressure situations/moments in massive games to deliver an assist/free kick/goal. Hardly the signs of a bottler.

“he’s no a captain” - two world class players and captains in GVB and SG sung his praises as a captain and player but what do they know. All because he doesn’t scream and shout and grab teammates by the throat on the park.

He was our biggest contributor in reaching the Europa league final, top scorer in the competition scoring many pressure penalties including leading in the shootout with the first penalty. Almost won the thing had it not been for Ramsay.

Stepped up in the league cup final and regularly in the 55 season.

The trophy count since he’s been here hasn’t been good enough but it’s a collective team issue rather than a Tav issue. And the first few years he was here is hardly a stick to beat him with given the shite surrounding him and the circus we had in the dugout until Gerrard arrived.

If fans genuinely believe getting rid of Tav will result in our defence being solid and midfield/strikers making up Tav’s numbers and us winning everything in sight, it’s delusional IMO. And only when he leaves will we realise just how much he brings to the table.

We’ve far bigger problems in the team to address than Tav.
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We have but Tav is the go to scapegoat.
Last night we again had a midfield and forward line who were absolutely dreadful but it falls back on our RB.
Our defence has no protection and we must have the worst strikers and midfield currently in the league , lack of movement is laughable.
 
It’s obvious our lack of success has been down to poor recruitment. Our all our midfield and front players the only ones I’d be wanting to keep are probably Sima and Dio. The rest of the area is full of dross who we’d have a lot of trouble moving on.

Blaming Tavernier is a comfort blanket for some. It’s easier than facing up the the issues with the squad. It’s easier than acknowledging that after 6 months it’s still unclear what Clement’s style of play meant to be.
 
Barryhopez said:
It's not really. The players we have just aren't good enough as a group to maintain a level of playing performance over a season to win the title, that is fact.

Making stuff up that he's not able to motivate the players is emotional nonsense unlesd their has been a dressing room revolt or players have come out and said so.
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Not good enough to beat Motherwell, Ross County and Dundee.

We were second best for 80 odd minutes at Dingwall. Keep hearing that celtic are crap yet we cannot beat them. Celtic have had Johnston, Taylor, Iwata, Kuhn, Yang, Scales for a lot of the season and are on course for winning their 54th league title.
 
How is it possible that people still can't understand this?

It's not just Tavenier, he's one of a
few senior players who have utterly failed multiple times under multiple managers to cope with the realities of the SPL.

It's time we had a team that wasn't reliant on Tavernier and has players of a different character.

We're a couple of bad results away from Celtic equalling our trophy record but there are STILL people excusing Tavernier's pathetic showings against them whilst using the usual silly phrases like "people need a scapegoat", wanting Lundstram to get a new contract and unable to conceptualise a team without players that can't handle a title race.

Yes, the squad is a mess but we can't keep expecting the usual suspects to integrate a winning mentality into any new look squad.

This team won 9 games in a row, looked to be fully together and in synch and then the minute they got into a position to drive for the title collapsed.

None of them should be spared criticism, least of all the experienced members who have been culpable of this before - many times.
 
TriggersBroom said:
He can only do so much though.

He doesn’t sign his teammates

Every year he’s stepped up with contributions.

If all other players contributed half of what Tav has, we’d have far more trophies in the cabinet
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No one can argue that he produces numbers going forward, however his piss poor defending cost us regularly when it really matters. The most recent example being against the bheasts. He has won three trophies and managed to get several managers the sack. Tav, Goldson, Lundstram have been at the heart of countless collapses in form over multiple seasons that's undeniable.
 
With Tav’s goals it shows up the rest of the forward line and how bad they actually are and how embarrassed I’d be if I were any of them that have played along side him on the last 7/8 years. A right back has outscored each and everyone of them.
Defensively he’s not the best, he’s never really been and he’s never going to improve at his age he’s maybe not even the best captain we’ve ever had either but we should be looking at who’s going to replace him and have a bit of forward planning. He plays in one of those positions that will be highlighted as soon as you step up to play better teams, 9 times out of 10 he’ll do on this shit hole league but a lot of others have said Tav’s the least of our issues, we have strikers who don’t score, midfielders who can’t pass or create and in general we are shite to watch right now. A right back isn’t the cause of all that.
 
He doesn't solely get the blame, there's threads on other players who get it in the neck but Tav now, is shown consistently poor defending, every horse runs it's course, he's getting on, ageing and now very stale. Just natural progression of moving on
 
TriggersBroom said:
Again, that is all his fault? No.

It’s not him that signs the dross he’s been playing alongside.

If the rest of the team contributed even half of what Tav has, we’d have been hoovering up trophy after trophy
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most of us can see it now, but in a few years you will look back and say -

"Tav great goal scorer for a RB, but we won Fck All"

and being a Gers captain, winning is all that matters.....................
 
I think he was one of our best performers in the mini resurgence recently but what gets me is when loads of people tell me how great he is when I have eyes and can see otherwise yet they tell you he’s amazing and we are lucky to have him.

I’d have more players out the door before him but there is a reason why he’s never left us.
 
Orange Peel said:
The reply of someone who hasn't played or understands football.
We went into that game with the upper hand, 50,000 bears, their influential captain on the bench and an early-ish goal from us and I'm sure we'd have run all over them.
The Manager would have worked all week on this and within 21 seconds the captain fucked up, they scored and the whole day changed and so did the title race.
We lost the initiative, the impetus and let them off the hook again.
The pressure on them was off and they could have scored more in the first half.
You dont get it.
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Spot on bud. You won't get through to this poster or the other Tav fan boys though.
 
Glasgow Rangers (Sco) said:
If I was Goldson and Tav i would be asking why the squad around me hasn’t been improved in any shape over the last two years.

I agree that Goldsons form has collapsed though
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It has. But he has been unfairly blamed for last season too by the people making all the nonsense “old guard” bottlers posts. He wasn't on the pitch when the league was lost last season. It had zilch to do with him. Our form fell off a cliff when he wasn't playing. This season, especially recent months, he doesn't look the same.
 
Wordy_Rappinghood said:
How is it possible that people still can't understand this?

It's not just Tavenier, he's one of a
few senior players who have utterly failed multiple times under multiple managers to cope with the realities of the SPL.

It's time we had a team that wasn't reliant on Tavernier and has players of a different character.

We're a couple of bad results away from Celtic equalling our trophy record but there are STILL people excusing Tavernier's pathetic showings against them whilst using the usual silly phrases like "people need a scapegoat", wanting Lundstram to get a new contract and unable to conceptualise a team without players that can't handle a title race.

Yes, the squad is a mess but we can't keep expecting the usual suspects to integrate a winning mentality into any new look squad.

This team won 9 games in a row, looked to be fully together and in synch and then the minute they got into a position to drive for the title collapsed.

None of them should be spared criticism, least of all the experienced members who have been culpable of this before - many times.
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Who's the most productive player in our shit squad?
Tavernier.
So surely it stands to reason that if you put better players around him then we get better? Or replace him with a better player (which we've not been able to do)

Tavernier has dug us out of holes this season alone never mind his other seasons. His teammates, in particular the forwards and midfielders, haven't held up their end. That is why we are where we are. Kris Boyd said it last night. Rangers cannot be relying on a right back to dig them out time and again, forwards have to do that. We have far too many players not producing half of what Tavernier is. Of course he makes mistakes and has been poor the last month or so as well. If he was great defensively he would never have been here either.
 
Boyblue62 said:
We have but Tav is the go to scapegoat.
Last night we again had a midfield and forward line who were absolutely dreadful but it falls back on our RB.
Our defence has no protection and we must have the worst strikers and midfield currently in the league , lack of movement is laughable.
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No, it falls back to the rb and captain.
The rb who takes poor corners from the left and has to jog back to his position. All about him.
The captain who doesn't lead or drive.
Barry Ferguson gets it tight on here but he was a real Rangers captain.
He'd have dragged 6 points out of these last 2 games by hook or by crook.
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Not good enough to beat Motherwell, Ross County and Dundee.

We were second best for 80 odd minutes at Dingwall. Keep hearing that celtic are crap yet we cannot beat them. Celtic have had Johnston, Taylor, Iwata, Kuhn, Yang, Scales for a lot of the season and are on course for winning their 54th league title.
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That's the thing that is often overlooked, intentionally no doubt and yes, yes I get it it isn't just Tavernier, but

He has played when we didn't win a Cup Final, against Hibs.
He has played when we were knocked out the domestic cups, by, Hibs, Hearts, St Johnston and Aberdeen.
He has been there when we have folded in the league, against Motherwell at Ibrox (twice now) Ross County at Dingwall (twice now), Hamilton at Ibrox.

These are games before even thinking for a second about the games that are actually big, it's not against teams we can't expect to beat, it's not against teams he didn't have the team mates to win those games it isn't expected he alone will win every single game

It's not all his fault, but f*ck me he has been there through all of it
 
We have far, far bigger problems than Tav. maybe if others chipped in even half the effort or moments he did we wouldnt all be wailing and greeting in the few games he didnt.

It would also be easier to lead a team to success if we had a forward line (including the 3 in midfield) that were capable of hitting a cows backside with a banjo, especially in big pressure moments, maybe we wouldnt need to rely on our right back and then be furious when he has a few bad games out of about 50 in a season.
 
Mview83 said:
Comment like that shows there’s absolutely no nuance / objectivity in this argument.
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What have we actually won though?
Yes, he's contributed to keeping us in touch with a chance to win the league,until we royally fvck it up as usual.
Obviously, it's not all on him but this constant " what about his goals" gets right up my nose
 
Orange Peel said:
No, it falls back to the rb and captain.
The rb who takes poor corners from the left and has to jog back to his position. All about him.
The captain who doesn't lead or drive.
Barry Ferguson gets it tight on here but he was a real Rangers captain.
He'd have dragged 6 points out of these last 2 games by hook or by crook.
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Did he not bugger off to Blackburn in the end, come back and let Walter down time and again until the point where he barely featured in the remaining half a year he was with us? think he maybe got the odd sympathy sub appearance. All this while also tanking his international career and bringing negative press on the club.
 
I’m not against Tav in any way, he will be remembered as a great Ranger - but as Captain he carries a heavier degree of responsibility and to be honest I’m tired of the post match excuses - he needs to get right behind PC - as a team some have downed tools and Captain and Manager need to sort that out onfield and off
 
ibroxbound said:
What have we actually won though?
Yes, he's contributed to keeping us in touch with a chance to win the league,until we royally fvck it up as usual.
Obviously, it's not all on him but this constant " what about his goals" gets right up my nose
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Scored about 20 goals as we won the league. Scored in the league cup final when we won it. Got an assist in the scottish cup final for the equaliser when we went on to win it.
 
JW1988 said:
Who's the most productive player in our shit squad?
Tavernier.
So surely it stands to reason that if you put better players around him then we get better? Or replace him with a better player (which we've not been able to do)

Tavernier has dug us out of holes this season alone never mind his other seasons. His teammates, in particular the forwards and midfielders, haven't held up their end. That is why we are where we are. Kris Boyd said it last night. Rangers cannot be relying on a right back to dig them out time and again, forwards have to do that. We have far too many players not producing half of what Tavernier is. Of course he makes mistakes and has been poor the last month or so as well. If he was great defensively he would never have been here either.
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I'm sorry mate but we need to move on from this idea for me. I appreciate what you're saying but that logic is unsound - wouldn't he be a weak link in a better team given his weaknesses?

Eveeything must go if this is ever to end
 
Orange Peel said:
The reply of someone who hasn't played or understands football.
We went into that game with the upper hand, 50,000 bears, their influential captain on the bench and an early-ish goal from us and I'm sure we'd have run all over them.
The Manager would have worked all week on this and within 21 seconds the captain fucked up, they scored and the whole day changed and so did the title race.
We lost the initiative, the impetus and let them off the hook again.
The pressure on them was off and they could have scored more in the first half.
You dont get it.
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well I have played football, pro youth level through my teens before a bad injury whilst in and out of reserve squads at that time, yourself?

He was to blame for that Maeda goal as he should have dealt with it quicker rather than hesitating. I’m not disputing that. But in all my years playing and watching football, I’ve seen thousands of players playing the ball out and no more than a handful of times have I seen it deflecting into the net.

Regardless, that was no excuse for the rest of the team to go hiding for the remainder of that first half. Misfield especially.

Second half we really ought to have won it, led by the captain who got us back into the game and continually drove us forward that full half where they were penned in for most of it.
 
Wordy_Rappinghood said:
I'm sorry mate but we need to move on from this idea for me. I appreciate what you're saying but that logic is unsound - wouldn't he be a weak link in a better team given his weaknesses?

Eveeything must go if this is ever to end
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Potentially you're right. But as I say you improve Rangers by improving the areas that aren't working. I would personally say our CB, CM, wings and strikers are performing worse than our RB.
Of course if there's a better option out there then I'm at the stage I'll take anyone being replaced, especially as it'll have to be a helluva good player to be better than Tavernier over the course of a season.
 
TriggersBroom said:
Just seen Boyd’s comments at FT. Spot on.

Continually relying on a right back to dig us out of a hole sums up the bigger problem we have.

No one else regularly steps up.
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No one else is allowed to step up.

It’s his baw he takes all the throw ins, free kicks and corners.

He is also done, lost his first yard of pace that used to get him out of trouble, he is winning a race with no one, towing that caravan, and now has the turning circle of a double decker bus.
 
NFTG said:
It does become tedious,

It is often referenced, his goal return, and it is fantastic. He has scored more than our midfield amazing, but, he has scored 15 penalties this season, you could feasibly make a case for every player in our squad had they done that.

Had Dessers taken penalties for us this season, and scored at the same rate he has and the same rate Tavernier has from penalties he would have scored 32 goals

Does that then mean he is an absolute success, even if every other element of his game remained the same?

If all people could say about Dessers was 32 goal season, how can anyone dare say he had been poor despite so many clear flaws in his game?

Lundstram would be a 17 goal midfielder had he scored penalties at the same rate, how could anyone say he had been poor despite flaws in his game?

Barisic could have been a 16 goal LB, what a return for a fullback, he would surely need a contract extension? Even if every other asset and return from him this season had remained the exact same?
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Exactly, when you break it down like this.
If dessers was on penalties 32 goals, Jesus Christ lol.
I’d be more impressed with tavernier if the “15” was something like 15 times he chased a player and slide tackled the ball with a crunching but fair tackle that either broke up play or saved a goal.
 
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