Would a Cup double be a successful season in your view?

Would a Cup double constitute as a successful season?

  • Yes

    Votes: 506 48.8%

  • No

    Votes: 530 51.2%
  • Total voters
    1,036
Now and forever said:
Whether you like it or not it's a fact the money is more next season. Also you say 'they' which means you have already conceded it to them? I haven't and it's certainly not impossible that cash could be ours.

It will be more difficult for whatever team doesn't win it because we are two piss poor teams and the standard has dropped.
Click to expand...
How much more just for the qualifying though? Every time I ask nobody tells me, that's all I am asking.

It's not impossible for the cash to be bothered teams, due to the qualification route. Tough qualification rounds aren't new either, they have always been tough to navigate.
 
In November if you’d asked I’d have said yes but the fact we were in pole position and blew it magnifies the feeling of disappointment.

We know the many factors involved why we aren’t going into this weekend as favourites but to still be in the hunt I suppose is an achievement just pisser we blew this.
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
Fair enough. I think people have us having some sort of 9 point lead we've thrown away when I don't think that reflects the reality.
Click to expand...
The truth is we had a 2 point lead and have dropped 8 stupid points since.
Losing to Motherwell and Ross County plus that draw at Dundee are what's unforgivable if the title is lost. It wasn't blowing "one game of football" as you put it.
The size of lead we had at any point in time isn't what matters here, it's the games we failed to win that have put us in the position we now are.
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
They've spent twice as much on transfers since 2012 as we have since getting back up. You can ignore that context if you want, but we don't live in a one season at a time vacuum. Especially when that allows them to sign more players than we can, take more hits on the duds and then do it all again season by season.
Click to expand...
This isn't true, quite the opposite in fact.

Looking at transfers since the 2011/12 season (when we went down) Celtic have made a net profit of £33.63 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £16.97 million.

Looking at transfers since the 2015/16 season (when we returned to the Scottish Prem) Celtic have made a net profit of £4.17 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £20.25 million.

Yes it's true that their expenditure has been much higher but they have not spent more overall on transfers than us in that period. This distinction might seem like I'm splitting hairs but it's a really important bit of context.

The only reason the scum are able to spend so much is because they generate good money through player sales. As long as they continue to outdo us in that regard, we're going to be fighting an uphill battle.

Source for those figures is transfermarkt Rangers / Celtic.
 
I voted yes, but only if we win our remaining games and lose the league on goal difference. If they put up a fight and didn’t gift the title, I would have hope for next season.
 
robbo89 said:
This isn't true, quite the opposite in fact.

Looking at transfers since the 2011/12 season (when we went down) Celtic have made a net profit of £33.63 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £16.97 million.

Looking at transfers since the 2015/16 season (when we returned to the Scottish Prem) Celtic have made a net profit of £4.17 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £20.25 million.

Yes it's true that their expenditure has been much higher but they have not spent more overall on transfers than us in that period. This distinction might seem like I'm splitting hairs but it's a really important bit of context.

The only reason the scum are able to spend so much is because they generate good money through player sales. As long as they continue to outdo us in that regard, we're going to be fighting an uphill battle.

Source for those figures is transfermarkt Rangers / Celtic.
Click to expand...
You can't compare net profit with how much is being spent. Every time they sell someone for £10-25 million it throws how much we both spend out and gives them a chance to spend money on 4 or 5 players when we can only spend the same amount on 1 or 2.
 
wilso10 said:
Assuming we don't do the business in the league, would a cup double make up for it?

If you'd given me the choice of the league or a cup double at the start of the season I would have chosen the league every day of the week. The thought of losing another league title to them is absolutely devastating.

As it is, the damage Michael Beale caused has led to us where we are and if Clement can produce a Cup double from that I'd be relatively happy.
Click to expand...
I’ll love the day if we win the cup but the next day will still be disappointed we lost the league to absolute shite
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
You can't compare net profit with how much is being spent. Every time they sell someone for £10-25 million it throws how much we both spend out and gives them a chance to spend money on 4 or 5 players when we can only spend the same amount on 1 or 2.
Click to expand...
We're both in agreement that what happened in 2012 gave them a big headstart financially. Since that point, they have implemented a very effective player trading model.

If we had also implemented an effective player trading model, but our income and expenditure from player trading was still lower than theirs because of the headstart they had, then I'd say fair enough, we're just catching up over time.

But the reality is that we haven't been smart in our transfers at all. We spend more than we bring in and we're about to head into our third squad rebuild in as many seasons.

The money we brought in from Patterson, Bassey and the Europa League final run could have levelled the playing field significantly if we had been savvy in how we spent it. Instead we frittered it away on dross and now we're almost back where we started with very few real assets in the playing squad we can sell and not much money in the bank.
 
Herman said:
It doesn’t really matter if your interested in the finances or not it’s a unpalatable fact, I seen a tim on Twitter say if they win the league this year there shouldn’t even be a title race for the next 10 years…..hard to argue against it
Click to expand...
Dave King said the same when we won 55, given the state they were in then it was easy to see where he was coming from, the difference was they kicked on while we didn't.

This close season will be our most important yet, whatever happens at the end of this one.
 
A league win and no cups would have been a success. 2 cups has to be a success but only if we lose on goal difference. We have to beat them.
 
robbo89 said:
This isn't true, quite the opposite in fact.

Looking at transfers since the 2011/12 season (when we went down) Celtic have made a net profit of £33.63 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £16.97 million.

Looking at transfers since the 2015/16 season (when we returned to the Scottish Prem) Celtic have made a net profit of £4.17 million. Rangers in that period have a net spend of £20.25 million.

Yes it's true that their expenditure has been much higher but they have not spent more overall on transfers than us in that period. This distinction might seem like I'm splitting hairs but it's a really important bit of context.

The only reason the scum are able to spend so much is because they generate good money through player sales. As long as they continue to outdo us in that regard, we're going to be fighting an uphill battle.

Source for those figures is transfermarkt Rangers / Celtic.
Click to expand...
To be fully fair though, the value of our squad at the start of 15/16 season was probably in the region of 10-15m, theirs probably something like 65m. Even though we've spent net more, they've had a huge rolling advantage with sellable assets throughout this entire period. With that advantage comes the ability to buy higher e.g. Edouard or to spend lower yet buy a bunch of players, with one of them coming good e.g. Jota or Furuhashi, we don't really have the ability to trade with that kind of freedom. We basically just have to hit the bullseye more than they do, which is difficult

There are other problems of course, in that the trades we have done have been quite disappointing and only Bassey has been a big success so far, Kamara's profit was quite nice too admittedly
 
robbo89 said:
We're both in agreement that what happened in 2012 gave them a big headstart financially. Since that point, they have implemented a very effective player trading model.

If we had also implemented an effective player trading model, but our income and expenditure from player trading was still lower than theirs because of the headstart they had, then I'd say fair enough, we're just catching up over time.

But the reality is that we haven't been smart in our transfers at all. We spend more than we bring in and we're about to head into our third squad rebuild in as many seasons.

The money we brought in from Patterson, Bassey and the Europa League final run could have levelled the playing field significantly if we had been savvy in how we spent it. Instead we frittered it away on dross and now we're almost back where we started with very few real assets in the playing squad we can sell and not much money in the bank.
Click to expand...
When I looked at the numbers once they'd spent something like £100 million more over the past 12 years and done so on nearly twice as many players. They aren't all that much better at it, they just have more capacity to spend on it and an allowance for a greater number of errors due to that. The money we brought in for Patterson and Bassey they already had the capacity to match and better on Ajer, Edouard and Tierney which they were then able to reinvest to offset, if not more as is the key point.
 
RAFBob said:
How much more just for the qualifying though? Every time I ask nobody tells me, that's all I am asking.

It's not impossible for the cash to be bothered teams, due to the qualification route. Tough qualification rounds aren't new either, they have always been tough to navigate.
Click to expand...
They are even tougher when you have a poor team is what i'm saying. . . And both are.
 
Herman said:
It doesn’t really matter if your interested in the finances or not it’s a unpalatable fact, I seen a tim on Twitter say if they win the league this year there shouldn’t even be a title race for the next 10 years…..hard to argue against it
Click to expand...
This is a title race of 3-6 points probably come the end of it.

This is literally nearly us being back to normal and how they all went before 2012. People are just completely browbeaten by the past 10 years instead of focusing on this one being a fairly standard pre-2012 season that has ups, downs, reversals and everything else a title race has.
 
hms said:
In November if you’d asked I’d have said yes but the fact we were in pole position and blew it magnifies the feeling of disappointment.
Click to expand...
We were also doing well in Europe at that stage - Hardly anyone mentions how meekly we ended up bowing out because the chat at the time was 'concentrate on the league'.
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
This is a title race of 3-6 points probably come the end of it.

This is literally nearly us being back to normal and how they all went before 2012. People are just completely browbeaten by the past 10 years instead of focusing on this one being a fairly standard pre-2012 season that has ups, downs, reversals and everything else a title race has.
Click to expand...
Thats far to sensible.
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
When I looked at the numbers once they'd spent something like £100 million more over the past 12 years and done so on nearly twice as many players. They aren't all that much better at it, they just have more capacity to spend on it and an allowance for a greater number of errors due to that. The money we brought in for Patterson and Bassey they already had the capacity to match and better on Ajer, Edouard and Tierney which they were then able to reinvest to offset, if not more as is the key point.
Click to expand...
If you don't think the scum are much better than us at player trading then I don't really know what to say.

They sell their players at the right time and get top dollar for them. We turned down £16m for Morelos and released him on a free.

We're all hoping that the rebuild this summer, the third rebuild in as many seasons, will be the one we get right.

If you're so staunch that you can't admit they've outdone us in player trading. then I don't know how to engage with you any further about it.

Yes they have more money than us but we need to understand that clubs who are smart about their player trading surpass richer clubs all the time in football. Look at Girona or Leverkusen this season. Or look at a club like Brighton vs a club like Everton if you want a more consistent example.

Our club is not going to be richer than the scum again anytime soon. Player trading is our only way out of this mess. It's not a quick fix but it's the only means we have to get back on top and we have to get much much much much better at it.

Until we do, we're going to be watching the same outcome in the league 4 times out of 5.
 
robbo89 said:
If you don't think the scum are much better than us at player trading then I don't really know what to say.

They sell their players at the right time and get top dollar for them. We turned down £16m for Morelos and released him on a free.

We're all hoping that the rebuild this summer, the third rebuild in as many seasons, will be the one we get right.

If you're so staunch that you can't admit they've outdone us in player trading. then I don't know how to engage with you any further about it.

Yes they have more money than us but we need to understand that clubs who are smart about their player trading surpass richer clubs all the time in football. Look at Girona or Leverkusen this season. Or look at a club like Brighton vs a club like Everton if you want a more consistent example.

Our club is not going to be richer than the scum again anytime soon. Player trading is our only way out of this mess. It's not a quick fix but it's the only means we have to get back on top and we have to get much much much much better at it.

Until we do, we're going to be watching the same outcome in the league 4 times out of 5.
Click to expand...
Are you certain Celtic haven't done this with any of their players who peaked then dipped in form? We've missed the boat with Morelos and Kent clearly but there must be one or two they think they should have sold on before they did over a 12 year period. They might be better at it, I said they aren't that much better at it. Rogic comes to mind. It goes back to my point they've been able to make big profits on 5 or 6 players because they've bought and spent money on 15-20 when we've made good money on 3-4 from 10-15 players because we've got 3 to 4 right. Volume is the difference.
 
Slipshod said:
Any season Rangers don't win the League must be considered a failure.
We are not Hearts.
Click to expand...
I agree we certainly weren't Hearts, they were playing for a title when we were having to beat Motherwell the last day of the season to get into Europe.

All this we are Rangers patter at the end of the day means nothing. We have a long history which wasn't always plain sailing. Seems too many just see our history through the lens of the Souness/Walter years. I had the time of my life, but also knew it wouldn't last forever, although I didn't think it would crash and burn as it did.

A problem we had and still do, is we've never been good at bringing through young players, when all the other clubs could. We lived in a country that produced exceptional players, but not many spent any of their careers at Ibrox. Nothings changed in that dept and now we are spending what's a lot of money to us on very average players from around the world.

The only good sign for me is that they're going back the way and the rest don't seem to be running scared of them. Not much between us at all but they're still a better team than us.
 
Winning two cups with what most of us will agree are a team of shitebags is a good achievement regardless of the birthday card pish being posted.

A success for Rangers as a club? Absolutely not but you can’t call them bottlers then not give credit for winning two domestic trophies.

Big Phil gets more of his own in next season and no picking up the pieces from Beale. So next season the league title is an absolute must.
 
Latinoheat_72 said:
Winning two cups with what most of us will agree are a team of shitebags is a good achievement regardless of the birthday card pish being posted.

A success for Rangers as a club? Absolutely not but you can’t call them bottlers then not give credit for winning two domestic trophies.

Big Phil gets more of his own in next season and no picking up the pieces from Beale. So next season the league title is an absolute must.
Click to expand...
Spot on
 
Every single bear wold have said 100 percent yes if asked this on the day we appointed Phil.

It's obviously disappointing in the way we have chucked the league after doing all the hard to catchup and overtake them which will cloud our judgement if we don't lift the league now but a saner opinion and thoughts will be reflected in the Summer.
 
The metric of success changes of the course of the season.

At one point, when Beale left, it probably would have been, but given the position we got ourselves into with such a short period to the end of the season, then to (potentially) throw that away with the results and performances that we've had means that, to me, it couldn't be considered successful.

If we fail to win the league from the position we got ourself into then its a disastrous season.
 
Difficult to call any year without a league trophy a success (barring some European achievement in its place).

However, if Clement was to win both cups from his starting position, I would consider that a success.
 
It's also worth mentioning that if we don't win the league it will largely be down to failing to gets wins against that lot. That's a bit of a monkey on the back right now.

Beating them in a massive cup final might not make up for the league but it puts that to bed and in good position for next season.
 
It would be given we’ve replaced managers at one point during the season, absolutely. The League has to be delivered next year no matter what however.
 
Latinoheat_72 said:
Winning two cups with what most of us will agree are a team of shitebags is a good achievement regardless of the birthday card pish being posted.

A success for Rangers as a club? Absolutely not but you can’t call them bottlers then not give credit for winning two domestic trophies.

Big Phil gets more of his own in next season and no picking up the pieces from Beale. So next season the league title is an absolute must.
Click to expand...
And if we don't?
 
wee bud's pit boots said:
If we lose this title, as seems likely, this deserves to be remembered as an horrendous season.

I'll take the SC of course, but it will be a hollow win given the circumstances.
Click to expand...
Sorry but that just feels like a ludicrous attitude to me. How is any manager supposed to win when he picks up the reins of a complete shitshow and steers us to the position we're in now, possibly end up with 2 cups and still have this season be called horrendous? That's just so out of touch with where the club has been at since getting promoted back to the prem in terms of success. It's a fantastic springboard for next season where the expectation to challenge for the title properly from the start of the season. What chance have we got if any bits of success are still pissed on by fans who can't move on from decades ago when the club were in a better place to dominate?

I know it'll sting that we had a bad run of 3 games at the wrong time where the title was concerned but to have been anywhere near it at this stage of the season after the mess we created in the first 3 months of the season should give fans with a slightly longer term vision hope that this is a managerial rein with genuinw potential to deliver for us if hes backed enough to create his own squad. PC I'm sure will have learned a lesson or 2 about the reliability of his current squad when the pressure is on.
 
WLF said:
For Clement it’s an acceptable return given what he inherited. But for this squad of players and the club in general? No chance. Not surprised to see so many content with it though.
Click to expand...
It's a realistic acknowledgement of where the club is at right now. You can strive for better but still be appreciative of steps forward in terms of the small taste of success in cup wins. It all helps to restore a winning mentality at the club.
 
falkirkbear said:
Dave King said the same when we won 55, given the state they were in then it was easy to see where he was coming from, the difference was they kicked on while we didn't.

This close season will be our most important yet, whatever happens at the end of this one.
Click to expand...
Last close season should have been huge. It was an overdue overhaul of a stale and ageing squad and we (or he!) screwed it up massively. Two summer signings punted in the January window. Others a mile off good enough. That's why we are where we are and why winning both cups (along with actually making a fist of the league and qualifying for the last 16 of the EL) should at least be seen as progress and a positive for going forward, even if we're not dancing in the street at the end of the season. You're correct that this summer we absolutely need to get it right. Need to fix the mistakes of last summer and with the number of OOC players and others surplus to requirements, there's going to be a helluva turnover.
 
Wouldn't have expected it while Beale was still here but ultimately we had the title in our grasp and the last few weeks the team has dismantled many fans faith. A cup double would be frustrating but something to build on
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
People will want Clement out if we ever go 6 points behind. For people who think loyalty begins and ends at they haven't stopped going, we sure have lost a lot of stomach for a fight.
Click to expand...
Yep and carry on in our one manager a season cycle. Doesn't work and you just need to look around football to see the proof of that. One of the good things Rangers done with appointing Walter was keeping things going as Souness began it. In my lifetime that era is beyond doubt the most successful that I've seen. After spending so many years being 2nd, 3rd and 4th even, it was worth the wait.
 
Big D said:
Last close season should have been huge. It was an overdue overhaul of a stale and ageing squad and we (or he!) screwed it up massively. Two summer signings punted in the January window. Others a mile off good enough. That's why we are where we are and why winning both cups (along with actually making a fist of the league and qualifying for the last 16 of the EL) should at least be seen as progress and a positive for going forward, even if we're not dancing in the street at the end of the season. You're correct that this summer we absolutely need to get it right. Need to fix the mistakes of last summer and with the number of OOC players and others surplus to requirements, there's going to be a helluva turnover.
Click to expand...
I hear you. Whatever you think of this season, progress has definitely been made. All down to our current manager.
 
Winning the league is everything (European trophy win excepted)

So, cups mean way less to me this season unless they have the UEFA badge on them
 
Last edited:
A Magician Named Gob said:
Are you certain Celtic haven't done this with any of their players who peaked then dipped in form? We've missed the boat with Morelos and Kent clearly but there must be one or two they think they should have sold on before they did over a 12 year period. They might be better at it, I said they aren't that much better at it. Rogic comes to mind. It goes back to my point they've been able to make big profits on 5 or 6 players because they've bought and spent money on 15-20 when we've made good money on 3-4 from 10-15 players because we've got 3 to 4 right. Volume is the difference.
Click to expand...
Sorry but where are you coming up with these arguments? We've signed a much higher volume of players.

Excluding loans, Rangers have signed 77 players since the start of 2016/17. Excluding loans, Celtic have signed 65 players since start of 2016/17.

And it's not 5 or 6 decent sales by them vs 3 or 4 decent sales by us.

We have sold 4 players for £5m or more in the last decade. They have sold 15 players for £5m or more in that time.

Their player trading has been better than ours. It's okay to admit that, the world isn't going to collapse. They had a big headstart on us building their player trading model without having to worry so much about competing in 2012 while we've had to try and establish ours since about 2016 while simultaneously trying to win trophies.

I believe we'll get there and I think we're already moving in the right direction under Clement and Koppen by signing players like Diomande (and hopefully Cortes). The main thing I'm trying to emphasise is that a financial gulf can be overcome by clever player trading and it's important we improve at it.
 
Last edited:
robbo89 said:
Sorry but where are you coming up with these arguments? We've signed a much higher volume of players.

Excluding loans, Rangers have signed 77 players since the start of 2016/17. Excluding loans, Celtic have signed 65 players since start of 2016/17.

And it's not 5 or 6 decent sales by them vs 3 or 4 decent sales by them.

We have sold 4 players for £5m or more in the last decade. They have sold 15 players for £5m or more in that time.

Their player trading has been better than ours. It's okay to admit that, the world isn't going to collapse. They had a big headstart on us building their player trading model without having to worry so much about competing in 2012 while we've had to try and establish ours since about 2016 while simultaneously trying to win trophies.

I believe we'll get there and I think we're already moving in the right direction under Clement and Koppen by signing players like Diomande (and hopefully Cortes). The main thing I'm trying to emphasise is that a financial gulf can be overcome by clever player trading and it's important we improve at it.
Click to expand...
Their squad as of 2016/2017 was presumably built up over players bought and sold in volume from 2012 onwards for the difference.

I think the second bit is my point is it not?
 
robbo89 said:
Sorry but where are you coming up with these arguments? We've signed a much higher volume of players.

Excluding loans, Rangers have signed 77 players since the start of 2016/17. Excluding loans, Celtic have signed 65 players since start of 2016/17.

And it's not 5 or 6 decent sales by them vs 3 or 4 decent sales by them.

We have sold 4 players for £5m or more in the last decade. They have sold 15 players for £5m or more in that time.

Their player trading has been better than ours. It's okay to admit that, the world isn't going to collapse. They had a big headstart on us building their player trading model without having to worry so much about competing in 2012 while we've had to try and establish ours since about 2016 while simultaneously trying to win trophies.

I believe we'll get there and I think we're already moving in the right direction under Clement and Koppen by signing players like Diomande (and hopefully Cortes). The main thing I'm trying to emphasise is that a financial gulf can be overcome by clever player trading and it's important we improve at it.
Click to expand...
I agree, but we need to give it a chance or we'll just bring someone in with their own ideas and start again. We really need stability as a club, which has not been the case since we nearly folded.
 
A Magician Named Gob said:
Their squad as of 2016/2017 was presumably built up over players bought and sold in volume from 2012 onwards for the difference.

I think the second bit is my point is it not?
Click to expand...
Mate you're just moving goalposts in every single response. You just told me that they signed a higher volume of players. I show that actually we have signed a much higher volume of players and now you're talking about the squad pre 2016.

I'm fed up rebutting your points now because you'll just "aye but" me with something else.

Let's leave it there. Fingers crossed we can both enjoy Rangers putting them to the sword on Saturday and then Clement and Koppen buying in some exciting new talent in the summer. Enjoy the game when it comes.
 
Last edited:
Voted yes , but we had a hand on the league trophy and shat ourselves , it’s the end of the line for a lot of players , no matter what happens
 
It would be a good achievement for Clement given what he inherited but not a successful season for Rangers. It’s the best consolation prize you can get, but it’s still a consolation prize.
 
wilso10 said:
Assuming we don't do the business in the league, would a cup double make up for it?

If you'd given me the choice of the league or a cup double at the start of the season I would have chosen the league every day of the week. The thought of losing another league title to them is absolutely devastating.

As it is, the damage Michael Beale caused has led to us where we are and if Clement can produce a Cup double from that I'd be relatively happy.
Click to expand...
All things considered, I will say "Yes"
 
Well this is just great. Not only does it look like Saturday is a waste of time, but it now looks like we don't bother with the Scottish Cup.

This is what football has became. The domestic trophies are now meaningless and let's face it, we'll never win the cl, as English teams do, they're not really interested, unless it's the cl, just for the cash alone.

That's one thing I noticed about our run to the el final. It worried me that to beat a 3rd German club would be a step too far. Unfortunately this was Frankfurts only way into it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Latest posts

Back
Top