Scottish teams in Europe

Batigol

Batigol

Well-Known Member
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
 
Fuk them all, thats my input.

In all seriousness they just aren't good enough and never will be unless much more money gets pumped into the league somehow.

I have never seen any other teams fans wishing us well in Europe so I really want them all to fail, we have managed to get the coefficient up without the diddy teams help so we can continue to do so.
 
This opinion won’t be popular in Scotland but…
Teams like Motherwell, Dundee United, Hearts and Celtc are just not good enough.
They are a total embarrassment to Scotland.
The SFA or Scottish league should decline the invites for these teams.
Rangers on the other hand have been an absolute delight in Europe and the Scottish leagues and SFA should be supporting our European run with everything they have available.
This is the reality
 
Batigol said:
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
Click to expand...
You've largely answered your own question: so much stems from the way the game is refereed here and the style of play that follows from this.

I have some pretty radical ideas about the distribution of funds which are certainly not supported by a majority of Rangers fans. Similarly, I would seriously look at franchise and drafting models similar to what we see in the US. We have a ridiculous number of teams for our size of population.

However, all of that is pointless if we still incentivise teams to play hoofball, hackball and other derivations of 70s football.
 
The point about refereeing makes little or no sense to me.

We heard the refs were to blame for the Motherwell result, in their next game there was a dangerous tackle which John Beaton punished with a red.

Utd didnt even make a tackle tonight they got 0 cards and defended like a ladies side. They will probably get stuck in against Rangers(well Jack Ross as manager they will defo get fired in and play with some aggression) but not every week and certainly not when they play against the tims.
 
You can increase the money into the game here or even switch to summer football all you want but if the quality of coaching is still going to resemble a shit version of Jurassic Park then the results will stay the same.

Dundee Utd's set up tonight was utter dogshit and that is because they have coaching staff that is exactly that. Dogshit. You would expect at least a 2-0, 3-1 loss with a bit of fight.
 
Recoba said:
Fuk them all, thats my input.

In all seriousness they just aren't good enough and never will be unless much more money gets pumped into the league somehow.

I have never seen any other teams fans wishing us well in Europe so I really want them all to fail, we have managed to get the coefficient up without the diddy teams help so we can continue to do so.
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Exactly my thinking as well. There’s about 3 teams, St Johnston, Livi and Ross County from our league that I would hope could get a result if they are playing in Europe, as I don’t have any feelings towards them either way. But the rest of the league I hope they get humped like that lot tonight, as they hate us and all couldn’t wait to stick the boot in back in 2012.
 
It starts with full stadiums, better food and access to alcohol combined with fair ticket pricing. No slashing of away allocations if you’re not filling your stadium. More money through that way.

Professional referees being explicitly told to stop allowing our game to remain excessively physical. Some might not like that fact, but the game has moved on and you’re lying if you don’t prefer watching the referees in Europe compared to the ones here.

Ban plastic pitches.

Do these the League will be able to attract some better sponsorships and investments, and with decent coaching these clubs might start to actually do something on the bigger stages.

All of this should of been done twenty years ago.
 
Tinpot bowling club attitudes for donkeys years finally showing us up for the footballing, and social, backwater we are.

Too many for way too long yielding onto their tiny bit of power has ruined the game at all levels.
We don't produce players good enough, we focus on the wrong things, we don't market our game or allow it to grow due to petty squabbling.
 
Batigol said:
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
Click to expand...
Summer football would be the most radical approach, it would totally change our entire attitude to football from kids right through the entire structure of the game.
The other thing we could change would be the size of the league.
An eighteen-team league would allow more young players to be introduced and develop in our game without pressure, this worked in the past when we produced so many players we exported them.

However, it would increase the number of dead rubber matches as teams like Dundee Hibs, Motherwell and Dundee weren't under the pressure of relegation.
It would have an impact on financials as there wouldn't be four matches of us v The FIlth making the TV package less attractive, however, this might be levelled with the summer games being easier to sell to a market where the surfeit of games is in the winter months.

None of this would ever be considered by the people who run our game because they are blazers without a clue.
 
Next week Hearts will probably lose to Zurich over the two legs and then will play in the conference league. Scottish football at that level in utterly pathetic. When Motherwell, Kilmarnock,Dundee Utd or whoever comes to Ibrox and plays 10-0-0 formation and gets praised by the Scottish sports press all it does is encourage neanderthal football. Tonight AZ showed how to play football. Now AZ are not the top team in Holland but when they go to Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord they will have a go. If they turned up and played with a 10 man defence not only would the Dutch press and media rightly slaughter them but their own support would as well.
 
Chocolateleftfoot said:
The best way for the other clubs to contribute to the coefficient is to forfeit entry in the first place. The more teams that enter affects the countries multiplier.
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Aye, that makes sense. They should knock back the chance of a full house and making a few bob because they'll probably get beat. :rolleyes:
 
Batigol said:
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think you've correctly identified the problem.
 
Batigol said:
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
Click to expand...
Hawl!!
A Gibraltarian team beat the mighty celic.
I'd bet Red Imps to beat Utd over 2 legs.
 
100 percent correct about aggressive over-physical football harming development. Our refs stand and watch assaults by European standards and wave play on. The ball is treated like a hot potato in Scottish games in most of these smaller grounds because the opposition are basically allowed to go through you to win the ball. If you don’t allow that you get a more technical game where possession of the ball is more valued. The opposite of a ‘technical‘ game/league is what we have in Scotland.
 
We border a country with 10 times our population but with barely over 2 times our amount of league teams.

25% of our teams play on plastic pitches.
Anyone ever seen a truly great game of football on the plastic fantastic ?
No , me neither.

Mix in truly incompetent referees and poor coaching and you have a perfect mix to create a truly awful product.
 
The points about how the game is reffed here are spot on, cant help at all and we 'd see better football played if given a chance.Doesnt help that due to finances and proxity of england we seem so many clubs have a massive churn of players every season.
 
They get there based on our exploits in the tournament's, but play a style of football that is reliant on lenient refereeing against us and that lot. There's no impetus on them to actually play football. When they get into Europe, they don't get away with the same 'robust' challenges, and the teams pass around and through them while actually being protected by the refs who generally do their job to a higher standard.
 
Noddy said:
Are you forgetting the embarrassing disasters we've had in Europe?
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I genuinely find the arrogance of some of our fans ridiculous. Yes, since Mr Gerrard rolled up we have done extremely well in Europe. Before that though, considering the amount of times we play in Europe, it's not been much to gloat about has it?
 
Mate you would be better asking for proof of unicorns and the Loch Ness monster. Scottish football is rotten overall. Fans that don't turn up. Fans/teams that have a creepy obsession with us.

We are a league that says Brown was a top player haha. A league that has been won by the same 2 teams for that past 30 year or so. As long as WE are winning in Scotland and Europe I couldn't give a shit about the other diddy teams. Winning or not.
 
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Dundee Utd have to take some encouragement from the first leg and look to build on that, for both the season ahead and if they manage to get European football next year; going away in Europe isn't easy, especially at first. I see the point in the OP, and agree with much it, but it wasn't that long ago they were playing in the Championship. Hearts have two games coming up, and hopefully they do well in those.
 
Brissy Bear said:
Tinpot bowling club attitudes for donkeys years finally showing us up for the footballing, and social, backwater we are.
Click to expand...
Then we got this shite.

Absolute total pricks running the Scottish game today sadly.
https%3A%2F%2Fs3-images.sportbible.com%2Fs3%2Fcontent%2F2144abc15b924af7145f901c710a134d.png
 
Mustang mad said:
I genuinely find the arrogance of some of our fans ridiculous. Yes, since Mr Gerrard rolled up we have done extremely well in Europe. Before that though, considering the amount of times we play in Europe, it's not been much to gloat about has it?
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The whole point is we have improved. Year after year. We move forward while Scottish teams go backwards. %^*& we went from 3rd division to European final in 10 year. We have every right to be arrogant when it's in connection with the rest of Scottish football.
 
DrumBear said:
The whole point is we have improved. Year after year. We move forward while Scottish teams go backwards. %^*& we went from 3rd division to European final in 10 year. We have every right to be arrogant when it's in connection with the rest of Scottish football.
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We don't really, we have two monumental games coming up and they are going to be ones were there is all to play for. We may go through, and hopefully we do, but we might not.
 
budsleftboot said:
Dundee Utd would never play that openly at Ibrox because the result would be the same,dont know why they did tonight
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Not sure they were intending to play open - they were just totally disorganised and hopeless in defence, not helped by a diddy goalkeeper. AZ have some good footballers who made them look like an under 16 team.
 
DrumBear said:
The whole point is we have improved. Year after year. We move forward while Scottish teams go backwards. %^*& we went from 3rd division to European final in 10 year. We have every right to be arrogant when it's in connection with the rest of Scottish football.
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I think we need to carry this on another couple of seasons before it becomes the norm though. This could easily just be our moment in the sunshine before we get humbled by some no marks.
Don't want to piss on the parade, but cannot get too carried away either.
 
JMCK said:
We don't really, we have two monumental games coming up and they are going to be ones were there is all to play for. We may go through, and hopefully we do, but we might not.
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In your opinion. In mine we do. When you compare it to the exploits of the rest. We certainly do.
 
Batigol said:
An attempt to get some ideas about what the future holds for the "provincial" Scottish teams in Europe. Dundee Utd shouldn't be expected to beat Alkmaar across two legs, but the manner of the defeat is something you'd expect an Andorran or Gibraltar based side to face.

I know tonight's result and Motherwell's previous embarrassment is funny, and people are quite entitled to have a laugh. However, the reality is that it only makes our job harder. Despite reaching the EL final last year, Scotland as a nation still got a lower coefficient than the 20-21 season because it is now being split across 5 teams rather than 4. Realistically, there are only likely to be 2 teams actually contributing anything meaningful which makes the task even greater.

I know many are not interested in what others do, but are there any creative or radical ideas that would improve the chances of our teams even negotiating a round or two in qualification. For me the biggest issue is the incentive to play turgid, defensive and completely retrograde football. This is then entrenched by refereeing which allows excessive timewasting and physicality which simply aren't accepted on the European stage, therefore any tactical approach is negated in European ties.

What's the thoughts?
Click to expand...
50 50 split on gate money?

League winners take lower amount of prize money and the money is shared mkre evenly

Its a tough one is everyone knows people only wanf to watch one team, but if the money is not shared out more evenly the gap will grow. Much like the big 5 and the rest of europe as they tie up all the big european money amongst themselves
 
Be interesting to see how hearts get on in the groups. The fact they're guaranteed 8 matches is a big deal. Might well be a couple of spankings but Ive a feeling they'll manage 2 or 3 decent showings. There will be some average sides in that conference. The experience should help a lot. It'll be worth 5-6 mil for them ( assuming they dont get into europa, get 4 full houses at tynencastle, maybe manage one home win and a draw somewhere. That must be close to 50% increase in turnover. If someone like hearts can qualify for that 2 or years in a row the finances will make a big difference compared to the clubs round about them.
It cant be easy running a provincial club in Scotland but we could really do with a hearts/hibs aberdeen sized club being run like a myjtland/ bodo type - those clubs have probably got smaller turnovers than the Scottish clubs mentioned. Just a bit of forward thinking with recruitment strategy and having a set style of play. A lot of small clubs from medium sized countries with budgets smaller than Scottish clubs have managed some respectability.
 
Mustang mad said:
I think we need to carry this on another couple of seasons before it becomes the norm though. This could easily just be our moment in the sunshine before we get humbled by some no marks.
Don't want to piss on the parade, but cannot get too carried away either.
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Of course it could just be our moment. That's football. It happens. We nearly did get humbled in the last game.

I still stand by we have every right to be arrogant in relation to what the rest have 'achieved' in europe.
 
scottishpoet said:
50 50 split on gate money?

League winners take lower amount of prize money and the money is shared mkre evenly

Its a tough one is everyone knows people only wanf to watch one team, but if the money is not shared out more evenly the gap will grow. Much like the big 5 and the rest of europe as they tie up all the big european money amongst themselves
Click to expand...
Was gate money shared 50/50 at some point previously, I've a feeling it might have been. Bold suggestion, not sure I'd agree with it. The gap between the old firm and the rest is so big, in terms of attendances, the extra money for all the other clubs would be the equivalent of a good cup run and just weaken the top two. I would genuinely like to see some more competition though
 
scottish football has not moved on, and the rest of europe has left us far behind, we're the only ones who play like a european team, and that's only when Gerrard took charge, everyone else is still playing a scottish style of football, until that changes, scottish football is going nowhere
 
Recoba said:
Fuk them all, thats my input.

In all seriousness they just aren't good enough and never will be unless much more money gets pumped into the league somehow.

I have never seen any other teams fans wishing us well in Europe so I really want them all to fail, we have managed to get the coefficient up without the diddy teams help so we can continue to do so.
Click to expand...
2012 fucked Scottish football. Yep they got their pound of flesh but it’s now apparent that the lack of sponsorship money etc coming into the game due to what was done to us has killed our game. Part of me loves it but part of me makes me shake my head still. %^*& the lot of them!
 
As embarrassing (& funny) that game tonight was, the real issue is Motherwell losing to Sligo, Killie losing to Connah’s Quay, etc.

We hit a low point after Progres & we changed our approach a year later. Teams can moan about money, but we changed by simply beating teams on or below our level. That’s all we should be asking from these sides & they fail to deliver. F*cking embarrassing tbh.
 
Up the standards of refereeing and try to shake the image we are footballing back water that still roundly applauds violent tackles.

Expand the league to 18 teams. Scottish football is stale. It's dull as hell playing the same teams 3/4 times a season. Might actually increase the standard of play if teams didn't go into a season thinking it's fine we've got them again next month anyway.

Ban plastic pitches in top flight football. Give them a couples years and a deadline. Enough is enough. You want a plastic pitch? Fine ply your trade in the lower leagues then.

Scrap the winter break. It's pointless. Stop creating an artificially tight and congested fixture list to allow a break during the milder months of winter. I never understood the need for one to begin with, other than that mob wanting a jolly in the sun, so they could break up the monotony when we were out of the top flight. Take away the three week holiday in the winter and have a longer summer break. This will allow teams the time to prepare for these early qualifiers properly.
 
Vince said:
100 percent correct about aggressive over-physical football harming development. Our refs stand and watch assaults by European standards and wave play on. The ball is treated like a hot potato in Scottish games in most of these smaller grounds because the opposition are basically allowed to go through you to win the ball. If you don’t allow that you get a more technical game where possession of the ball is more valued. The opposite of a ‘technical‘ game/league is what we have in Scotland.
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Exactly. Scottish sides can't play their "natural game " in Europe as foreign refs won't tolerate the endless lunatic challenges for the ball allowed in Scotland. Unless Scottish refs also change their behaviour, as well as the clubs, Scottish football collectively cannot advance in European competition.
 
Neilston Unionist said:
It starts with full stadiums, better food and access to alcohol combined with fair ticket pricing. No slashing of away allocations if you’re not filling your stadium. More money through that way.

Professional referees being explicitly told to stop allowing our game to remain excessively physical. Some might not like that fact, but the game has moved on and you’re lying if you don’t prefer watching the referees in Europe compared to the ones here.

Ban plastic pitches.

Do these the League will be able to attract some better sponsorships and investments, and with decent coaching these clubs might start to actually do something on the bigger stages.

All of this should of been done twenty years ago.
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You stop with all that sense now! You dangerous radical.
 
The strongest provincial clubs could follow the Queens Park model that would be a starter .

Refereeing argument I entirely agree with OPs it’s like a different sport here .

Sfa / spl need to rewrite football constitution, amalgamate , and throw out these mentally challenged regimes and get some proper technical football skills at the heart of the new association .

And have a new business and marketing focus to uplift revenue streams considerably
 
Noddy said:
Aye, that makes sense. They should knock back the chance of a full house and making a few bob because they'll probably get beat. :rolleyes:
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It was a joke mate. Based on the fact other clubs contribute so little coefficient points to the coefficient that they are as well as not being there at all, as the teams that do score points, namely Rangers earn less points per win depending on the number of Scottish teams in Europe.

What do they need a full house for anyway, what happened to sell out Saturdays?
 
Beer Belly Loyal said:
Then we got this shite.

Absolute total pricks running the Scottish game today sadly.
https%3A%2F%2Fs3-images.sportbible.com%2Fs3%2Fcontent%2F2144abc15b924af7145f901c710a134d.png
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The real reason for catastrophic failure is we don't have football people at the helm that has managed or coached at any level and too many sitting on a gravy train. If it was a business these bosses would've been shown the door long ago. That's where the overhaul needs to start if we are ever going to progress. Their sole aim seems to see Rangers beaten and nothing else.
 
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