King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
If the Club 1872 shareholding has been diluted that much, surely that means there are 2 choices: (1) invest more or (2) give up (?).
I am in favour of "no surrender" and making it work.
Club 1872 AGM - 7 people attended?
- Thread starter Beansie
- Start date
I am in favour of "no surrender" and making it work.
Absolutely right. It was only a decade or so ago we had all manner of things going on. We have existed for 150 years and hope to exist a lot longer - so things and people will change. The other main benefits of the 25% holding is that it can restrict disapplying the pre-emption rights of shareholders, often used by directors wishing to dilute the votes of other parties. It offers protection against changes to the Articles of Association which control the governance of the company and the voting rights of shares. To ignore the importance of the 25% in our situation would be an act of naivity.
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lesleys
Well-Known Member
In relation to your last point - it isn’t as easy as that. The Board is made up of 5 people and at least 3 of them seem to be part of a clique. There have been Board members in the past few years (including someone on here) who have basically given up as they have been pissing in the wind.
Board members come up for re-election. Vote them out? You need 20 nominations to even stand and you may not be allowed to stand even then based on any spurious reason the Board fancy at the time. They also expel contributors who stand up against them with no right of appeal.
I well understand fans want to donate, I paid in almost £300 a year for several years. I stopped when I no longer understood what was going on, didn’t like the number of directors resigning and the regular internal battles. I also calculated that C1872 could NEVER reach ITS OWN target of 25%.
Since I saw no way that it could achieve its objective and I didn’t like how it was run, I opted out. That doesn’t mean that Rangers has less protection, actually, it has more because I invested directly and my shares are voted the way I want them to vote. I will also take up any Rights Issue or other share offer, unlike C1872 who are more intent on buying Dave King’s shares - with little benefit to the football club.
And I don’t have to worry about the actions of others.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
I desperately wanted to make it work. That’s why i joined a handful of others and took fairly drastic action to try and arrest the decline. We got chucked out and were likely behind some people trying to harass my employer (stupidly… I’m on the board, they were lying about me to myself…) and yet I still encourage people to continue to Contribute, to vote and to keeping trying to make it work.
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LJ50
Well-Known Member
And this here is the reason we wanted to be able to offer independent fan shareholders the opportunity to proxy shares, on an annual basis, to C1872. Because there are some who support the collective ownership model and others who wish a private shareholding but want the fans en masse to have a significant bloc. I believed in both, I have my private shareholding and Contributed for years to the RST and Rangers First and then as a “life member” of C1872 (life, until the incumbents threw me out for daring to criticise them).
You don’t need to give up. You can buy shares yourself with the same effect - the difference being they’re in your name not someone else’s. And you can pass them on to someone else if you choose to do so. OK, the money won’t go to Rangers but then the donations used by C1872 to buy Dave King’s shares don‘t go to Rangers either.
You naughty lad, fancy having good ideas about fan share ownership
Spot on! I’m minded to mention to those who don’t see the importance of 25% or who want a sugar daddy - David Murray. Arguably, he was our most successful owner (on the park) combining 16 league wins, 9IAR, 9 Scottish Cups and a UEFA runners up. And just look where that took us. He was considered to be a Rangers man who was wealthy and prepared to spend on players. Big deal.
Our current shareholding structure makes that incredibly difficult but nothing lasts for ever. So fans holding 25% has to be the ambition for all time. With what we have just now there ain’t a chance IMHO.
Once a year?! (if you're lucky)
Contributors tried to change it last year and all now expelled.
Not to mention they’ve had something like 13 different directors in less than 7 years. Worryingly 9 of them resigned or weren’t voted back in. So much for stability. In total, they’ve had 17 officers and only 4 remain after 6 and a bit years. That’s almost as big a turnaround as the Tory Party leadership!
mully10
Well-Known Member
I lasted 3 months! I just wish the people who contribute aimlessly would hold them to account, but that doesn't ever appear to be likely.Not to mention they’ve had something like 13 different directors in less than 7 years. Worryingly 9 of them resigned or weren’t voted back in. So much for stability. In total, they’ve had 17 officers and only 4 remain after 6 and a bit years. That’s almost as big a turnaround as the Tory Party leadership!
Yeah it must have been very difficult. It’s all very well for the rest of us to say we should make sure it works - with loads of fans on social media backing you up. But in real life, when the important decisions are being made, that support isn’t there and you’re on your own. It ain’t so easy. It shouldn’t be the battle it is. When a handful of people are holding off many more, there is a problem, a serious problem. Repeating the same unsuccessful process only brings a similar outcome. Hoping it will change is just that - a hope not an expectation.
stillAlwaysblue
Well-Known Member
I am not aware of Club 1872 having 25%. Shareholders which includes Directors can sell their shares at any time. Who buys the shares will then own the holding.
Are you saying that Club 1872 can stop a rights or placing which will dilute their holding unless they take up the offer.
Also what fans have a shareholding other than those in their own name.
I expect that Club 1872 can not sell the shares without a vote but again not being a member I am not aware of what. At an AGM Club 1872 have a vote but who is to say this will be what all contributors want.
I will be interested to hear when 25% is reached.
That’s the point. C1872 doesn’t have 25% and looks as if it never will. So it will play no meaningful role in the future of Rangers. Especially since it has also fallen out with the football club board. At the current level of donations, it will be at least 30-40 years and probably never.
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your replies. Re never reaching the 25% target, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if Club 1872 isn't attracting funds through the principle of dilution.
Re yours and the other replies, no one answered my first point as to why it isn't possible to make this work for Rangers when it does for many of the teams in Germany.
The bottom line is that everyone's best interests are served by Club 1872 (and/or a new version of that if governance is as bad as many people on here say) succeeding.
It would be helpful if Follow Follow could invite them on here to put their side of the story (I'm sure that there is one...) and somehow moderate the responses such that there is a meaningful discussion.
For what it is worth, if anyone is reading, I have a business background in resolving disputes and would love to help.
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest, how did they chuck you out?
Did the meeting degenerate into complete disorder or did they just not appreciate alternative perspectives?
I really struggle to have much enthusiasm for the Dave King v the current board debates but I am concerned that the current board has not / is not being held to account for where the last year of European money windfall has gone.
ibroxbound
Well-Known Member
They won't arrange the required amount of meetings to allow rule change.
Orange County
Well-Known Member
This is a lot more difficult than a business dispute.
Rather than complaining we didn’t answer your question, you could have checked the rules of the Bundesliga. Do that and you’ll be able to answer it yourself. I have a business background also though I was taught that checking the facts helped.
Whether you have or have not enthusiasm for King V The Board debates, there are issues between the two. What makes you think the European windfall has gone anywhere?
A group of half decent people tried to arrest its alarming decline a year or two ago.
Unfortunately they didn’t succeed, and C1872 is finished in its current form.
Unfortunately they didn’t succeed, and C1872 is finished in its current form.
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
Actually, I didn't complain that no one had answered my question. I just said that no one had had answered my question (and still, no one has)..... I really don't have any skin in this game beyond preferring to see it resolved in a positive manner because I think that would be good for Rangers.
And as for checking facts, there are a lot of facts about the Bundesliga, so it would have helped if you were a bit more specific.
I really can't tell you if the European windfall has gone anywhere or not (nor the transfer fees for Patterson, Aribo or Bassey) - that is something I'm not thrilled about. But I can tell you where it hasn't gone - and that is toward purchasing new players.
Sorry if I have touched a raw nerve....
LJ50
Well-Known Member
You say you have a business background, so the RIFC PLC annual reports shouldn't be difficult to follow. You can see our financial position laid out plainly and extrapolate that across the Champions League revenues. We have run a structural cash outflow in recent years - our operating expenses have consistently, and significantly, exceeded our income.
That aside, we did purchase players this summer, and more in January. We committed to significant salaries over a number of years, including Goldson's new contract, likewise Tavernier, as well as Colak, Matondo, Lawrence, Yilmaz. We have paid compensation to Gio and his team, and likely compensation also to QPR to get Beale.
It's genuinely not difficult to see where the "windfall" is going. Whether you think the players themselves represent value for money is an entirely separate question. There are criticisms to be made of the RIFC board, god knows I do some moaning on here. But a constructive relationship with the PLC and the Club would allow C1872 to be a positive influence, that doesn't exist today.
Fan ownership + Bundesliga works for me. You’ve not touched a nerve but you have come across as rather patronising. You presume no one has tried to resolve issues at C1872 when a number of people have (and have said so on here) You imply European money is “missing” when you actually mean it hasn’t been spent on players. As LJ50 has already pointed out, the information is out there ….. just as are the rules of the Bundesliga and the history of C1872. Dispute resolution requires a bit more fact finding and a little less pre-conceived ideas.
Orange County
Well-Known Member
How can you get half decent people, its either decent or not.
Hillheadbear
Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
It was a group of people - myself included - with pretty deep business experience and all of whom had been successful in their own fields.
We had a realisation, supported by C1872's own accounts, that C1872 was in a state of decline. Declining contributors, declining percentage of shares in Rangers and declining influence. Our objective was to arrest that decline and, hopefully, put C1872 back on a path where it could play a meaningful and constructive role at Rangers.
We were unsuccessful which is a source of great regret to me. I really don't see any future for C1872 as it is currently set up.
Orange County
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, its a pity some of the existing Directors wont let go.
Possibly the way forward may not be partial fans ownership , surely an organisation with say 20- 30k fans would have a better voice.
I believe the existing directors etc are possibly the best people we can hope for.
They have made plenty mistakes but who else is there.
A large organisation could hold the existing hierarchy to task , and dictate turnover should any rogues appear again.
Northampton_Loyalist
Well-Known Member
I have said it already on this thread, but it is completely and utterly irrelevant now whether the current board of C1872 are whiter than white, have done everything perfectly and are beyond any reproach. It matters not one iota. The only important question is whether their continued involvement is helping advance the group or holding it back. The answer is so staggeringly clear it does not need to be voiced.
If they had a single shred of self awareness, they would realise that even if they are absolutely correct and justified in everything they have done, they are causing a huge amount of mistrust and are literally running the group into the ground. There is no way they are not aware of this, which means their clinging on to power has to have other motives than the good of the organisation. Whether those motives are personal or driven by outside influence is moot: the end product is a promising idea with a huge amount of merit being slowly and steadily drained of any relevance.
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
The money (European + transfer fees) is certainly somewhere - there is/was a lot of it and very little of it seems to have been spent on improving the team. My original (genuine question) was as to why Club1872 was destined to fail when it clearly works elsewhere. I really don't think dispute resolution works via a message board but vague concepts such as what you have written above and words concerning what you think I have presumed, what you think I have implied and your deduction re pre-conceived ideas aren't helpful and in fact are the sort of language that leads to disputes.
I am really looking forward to reading on here as to how you have solved this yourself.
Hillheadbear
Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
I think there are ways in which a supporters organisation can be successful in controlling or representing a sizable shareholding of the club and in being able to have a constructive relationship with the club.
I think the way that C1872 have gone about their business is extremely unlikely to be successful. The contribution model has its place but, on its own, will never be sufficient to build the sort of percentage shareholding that they aspire to.
Like it or not, the current Rangers Board is made up of Bears with significant means and who have put their money on the line. There were several years where we were kept afloat through sizable loans from those Bears. There are those on here who complain about the Board but we would be in a far worse place without them.
For a C1872 or similar organisation to be successful, it needs a very different approach in its relationship with the supporters, its relationship with its members and its relationship with the the Club.
Orange County
Well-Known Member
Club1872s shares will constantly get diluted, is there any real point to have between say 5-10%.
They will constantly be chasing contributions to keep that percentage.
All has went very quiet since the AGM.
Well you don’t seem to be too interested in solving your “genuine question” yourself since you haven’t even bothered to check why fan shareholding is successful in Germany. For others who may actually be interested, it’s because of the rule which requires Clubs, including their fans, to control the voting rights in the Club if they want to play in the Bundesliga. Private investors aren’t allowed to control them. It’s been around for over 20 years and is quite well known. You can work the rest out for yourself, if you are really interested that is.
Agreed and it won’t be able to do that buying Dave King’s shares rather than new shares which would benefit the Club. Paying contributors and donations are falling, percentage shareholding is falling, they’ve fallen out with the club and they’ve lost 9 out of 13 directors in the last 6+ years. And some ask why they are failing?
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
I would rather trust Guy Fawkes with gunpowder
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
If you remember, I asked the question of someone else and you chose to butt-in.... The question was as to why the poster thought fan ownership here was doomed to fail when it is successful in Germany (?). But despite your multiple BS posts, you still have not addressed that in any shape or form. How on earth does the Bundesliga's 50+1 rule (that you somewhat patronizingly [but wrongly/ misleadingly] explained to everyone else offer an explanation as to why Club 1872 is necessarily doomed to fail?
I can quite see from the others on here as to what Club 1872's failings are but it takes two to tango and it seems that you are quite the angry dance partner.
Let's not keep going with this...
I really hope that everyone involved (Club 1872 and those that are pissed off with them) find a way of solving their differences (mediation sounds a good starting point) because there could come a day where it is important to everyone that has Rangers' interests at heart.
Hoosier Ranger
Well-Known Member
__________________________
Their rate of contributions cannot sustain anything other than a dilution of shares.
Their rate of contributions cannot sustain anything other than a dilution of shares.
Whatever.
King Billy's Chosen Cat
Well-Known Member
Club 1872 detail new Rangers share plan as Dave King pulls out of deal
Club 1872 will explore alternative avenues to increase their stake in Rangers.
www.heraldscotland.com
ibroxbound
Well-Known Member
King has gone now and I hope the power of a certain individual,working in the background, has had his wings clipped.
The board needs to do the decent thing and resign.
cambridgeblue
Well-Known Member
"
What detail ? Load of pish.
Club 1872 detail new Rangers share plan"
What detail ? Load of pish.
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