Daisy Christodoulou on VAR

[wee bud's pit boots]

It just isnt better than the old system. There are as many debates about big calls with VAR as there was before it was implemented. All with the additional penaltly of massive delays, confusion for fans in the ground and the death of spontaneous joy and celebration.

No one will convince me this has been an improvement or worth it. And i'm not interested in arguing the toss about specific incidents involving us. I'm talking about the game in general and its future.

We wouldn't have received the penalties we have been awarded this season if it wasn't for VAR.

Explain that?

Oh, and as I've said on numerous occasions, I don't trust for a second the rats in black behind the cameras.

 

[themoffster’s ghost]

VAR is for “clear and obvious” errors.
An offside that tight isn’t clear and obvious.
I was against VAR from the start and its proven me right. It’s ruining games.

 

[academical]

This needs reviewed. Fans and audiences are being cheated out of goals because of ridiculous rulings.

Off side originated to stop the attacker poaching or gaining an advantage etc.

In the case like the Coventry one it is actually scandalous that players and fans are denied a goal in these circumstances.

I think this is the first time I’ve liked a post by Mr Negative.

This isn’t a problem with VAR, it’s a problem with the offside rule.

 

[hms]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

The difference is var would give the goal

 

[Aragorn]

Appreciate it would cost a fortune but am sure there must be or soon will be a way to cover the whole playing length of the pitch with computerised cameras, so that any image is at right angles giving a true picture of an offside call.

It’s never going to happen in Scotland with costs involved but believe it will be used somewhere in near future.

 

[KingCarlos72]

Is there any point in having linesman now

 

[RFC81]

It appears that VAR is merely creating more questions than answers.

Yeah, I was all for VAR before it was officially introduced. I thought it would completely remove the human error element of whether a player is onside or offside, but like you say; more questions than answers now. To be honest, I'd be more than happy to scrap VAR and just go back to how it was. There might be mistakes from refs and linesmans, but VAR hasn't completely solved what it was meant to.

 

[Portrushbear]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

Was he though, there's an image going about that shows the line is actually over the end of wan bissakas foot

 

[muttley]

Yeah, I was all for VAR before it was officially introduced. I thought it would completely remove the human error element of whether a player is onside or offside, but like you say; more questions than answers now. To be honest, I'd be more than happy to scrap VAR and just go back to how it was. There might be mistakes from refs and linesmans, but VAR hasn't completely solved what it was meant to.

When VAR is now subjective and not objective, then what really is the point of it operating.?

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

VAR isn't perfect but it's better than the old system of fat, incompetent linesmen trying to keep up with the speed of the modern game.

The best option is to keep VAR and work on improving it.

Currently it makes mistakes and 'honest mistakes' more difficult to gloss over. Not impossible as we've seen too often, but more difficult. For us that's a step forward.

 

[Calgacus]

Honestly even with the lines I still can't tell if the Coventry player is off or not.

I do like wengers idea that if any part of you is level you're onside

You'd see strikers stretching out an arm & hand as far as possible, we could end up talking about fingertips when the rest of the player is offside.

 

[nasalsinatra]

With your suggestion you'll still have to rely on lines being drawn. It'll just be the heel of the attacker rather than the furthest forward point.

But it gives the advantage to the attacker!

 

[bkerr72]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

Yeah it's getting a bit boring now. You could tell from the first replay without the lines it would be disallowed as he is offside its tight as anything but ultimately it was the right decision as you say.

 

[Trafalgar]

Under the rules its correct so no issues with it being disallowed my point is has the Coventry player really gained any advantage? Even if he was onside the passage of play ends the same way.

Immaterial imo.
Offside is offside. We can't start with dud player really gain an advantage or not. That brings more interpretation into it. Its on or off.

 

[Barca Bear]

These offside decisions are total nonsense. You could just move one frame back or forward and also slightly skew your line drawing to change the decision very easily. If it is noticeable offside then fine, otherwise it’s in favour of the attacker.

That was the instructions before Var.
The benefit of doubt should favour the attacker.

 

[Googsly 8]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

And how fkn likely is that scenario

 

[Slippy]

People wanting to change offside for marginal decisions is ridiculous. If you change it to say they have to be "noticeably offside" or there had to be daylight between the attacker and the defender then there will still be marginal decisions.

For me, as it stands, the rules are perfect.

What bothers me is the time it takes to make a decision, even in cases where is easy to see with the naked eye that someone is clearly on or offside. Automated offside is the way forward to save time with these decisions.

 

[Chocolateleftfoot]

var shouldn't be involved in subjective offsides. Linos decision is final. Problem being the linos are now all shitebags when there's a fallback with var.

There's no such thing as a subjective offside. It's the one rule in football that isn't subjective.

People seem to be more worried that a dramatic moment/fairytale story was ruined than worrying about whether the decision was right or not.

VAR didn't cost Coventry a place in the final. The fact the guy was offside did.

 

[Frewdydude]

You'd still have controversy over whether the back of the striker's heel was level, as opposed to whether his toenail was offside currently.

Those demanding goals would say "his heel was almost level, there must have only been half an inch in it".

Doesn't matter. Offside is offside.

I thought that VAR is supposed to correct clear and obvious errors. That doesn't apply in offside calls where it comes down to a matter of a cm or two and may well depend on the particular camera frame chosen.

After all a human sprinting at 20mph, which is reasonable for an athlete at top speed, covers around 9 metres per second. If you have a frame rate of 60 then the difference between one frame and another is around 15cm. How then can you tell whether an obvious error has been made?

 

[Timardim]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

It's not VAR ruining the game ,as you say it's done the job , it's the offside rule , and needs looked at..there's far too many situations where the deemed offending player is not gaining any advantage, indeed sometimes further away from the ball than the other teams closest player, yet because of the angles used and the lines drawn up he appears offside. The ball isn't always travelling on the ground.. Sometimes it's airborne when the offside occurs. The Offside rule was introduced to prevent one team / player, gaining an unfair advantage , but that not the case in a lot of situations.

 

[Rangerista]

The Bleedin Obvious

The game of football was never meant to be refereed to the nth degree, as we're currently witnessing.

It was always accepted by most fans that fine line mistakes would occur, but that in general, the overwhelming majority of decisions would be correct.

But, and hardly a revelation, because of money and the financial implications it brings, we are now in the grip of the interpretation of the minutiae of inches for offside, handballs of dubious provenance and worst of all, the gnawing feeling in your stomach every time a goal, a great goal is scored, that it'll be disallowed, whether you're a casual observer, or passionately involved.

VAR is sucking the lifeblood and enjoyment out of the game and as the article suggests, the technology may not be up to the task it has been set.

 

[paphosranger]

Som

There's no such thing as a subjective offside. It's the one rule in football that isn't subjective.

People seem to be more worried that a dramatic moment/fairytale story was ruined than worrying about whether the decision was right or not.

VAR didn't cost Coventry a place in the final. The fact the guy was offside did.

Some believe he was offside, some don't. Like it or not, agree with that or not but that's subjective.

 

[StavrosDingbat]

The way it is setup as it is gives them free reign to draw the lines wherever the agenda suits Them .The offside law should be changed back to having daylight between the attacking player and defensive one .Which would give the attacking player the advantage again .Resulting in more goals which cant be a bad thing ,Also defenders would have to get tighter to attacking players like before .Its the only way it can be fair .No more drawing of lines.The offside in that picture above should never be offside and we all know it.

 

[SymonSays]

VAR hasn't improved the game, only detracted from it by interminable delays, muted goal celebrations, constant argument over millimeters, and the inevitable claims of judgmental errors among VAR officials. Before the advent of VAR, and after any goal, I always looked to see if the ref was pointing to the center circle (or not). This ecstatic or agonizing moment is now denied by technology. Bin VAR.

 

[Kentbear]

I thought that VAR is supposed to correct clear and obvious errors. That doesn't apply in offside calls where it comes down to a matter of a cm or two and may well depend on the particular camera frame chosen.

After all a human sprinting at 20mph, which is reasonable for an athlete at top speed, covers around 9 metres per second. If you have a frame rate of 60 then the difference between one frame and another is around 15cm. How then can you tell whether an obvious error has been made?

Good point, and the lines are drawn with everyone trusting that is the exact moment the ball has left the foot of the player passing the ball.

 

[CRAIG1873]

It might be worth bringing in a challenge system like they have in tennis.

Each manager could be given three challenges per match. Wrongly contest a referee's decision and you lose one challenge. So, if you do that three times you can no longer make any challenges in that match.

If however VAR indicates that the referee got it wrong and the challenging manager was correct, then that manager does not lose a challenge. For example, if that was his first challenge and he is correct, he still has three challenges remaining.

With this system the game is only paused for a VAR review at the request of a manager. If they take the piss and challenge everything, no matter how spurious, then they'll end up with no challenges left.

I've been saying something like this should be introduced since VAR was brought in.

 

[JMCK]

VAR hasn't improved the game, only detracted from it by interminable delays, muted goal celebrations, constant argument over millimeters, and the inevitable claims of judgmental errors among VAR officials. Before the advent of VAR, and after any goal, I always looked to see if the ref was pointing to the center circle (or not). This ecstatic or agonizing moment is now denied by technology. Bin VAR.

I was on the fence about VAR till this game, but after that I would like to see it scrapped; it appears now to have an overreach that takes the crucial elements of football away. Without VAR in the Coventry game would we all honestly be looking at a controversial winner for Coventry? The game, in my opinion, is in danger of losing its most crucial elements of spontaneity and drama if this continues; there really is no other rhyme or reason why 22 players kicking a ball, trying to get it into the net instills such passion etc, and if we lose that we put the popularity of the game in danger. Had Coventry won that game, it would have lived on in memory and folklore for decades; for such a margin to take that away possibly risks the brilliant reputation that football has earned itself through generations.

 

[Class of 72]

Think the Arsene Wenger option should be used. Benefit to the attacker. Only offside if there is daylight between striker and last defender. Nice and simple.

I used to think that would be great but realistically it gives the attacker a yard start on the defender which isn’t really fair. IMO

 

[Class of 72]

There should be no human error involved with VAR. Only cheating and corruption.

I think with objective decisions like offsides, ball going out or over the line I agree but it’s difficult to interpret certain decisions. Maybe this is when AI may come in handy.

 

[Chocolateleftfoot]

Som

Some believe he was offside, some don't. Like it or not, agree with that or not but that's subjective.

No, he was offside. Some accept that, some don't. Like it or not, agree with that or not but that's a fact.

Offside isn't a matter of opinion. You are on or off.

 

[Chocolateleftfoot]

I was on the fence about VAR till this game, but after that I would like to see it scrapped; it appears now to have an overreach that takes the crucial elements of football away. Without VAR in the Coventry game would we all honestly be looking at a controversial winner for Coventry? The game, in my opinion, is in danger of losing its most crucial elements of spontaneity and drama if this continues; there really is no other rhyme or reason why 22 players kicking a ball, trying to get it into the net instills such passion etc, and if we lose that we put the popularity of the game in danger. Had Coventry won that game, it would have lived on in memory and folklore for decades; for such a margin to take that away possibly risks the brilliant reputation that football has earned itself through generations.

You want VAR scrapped because Coventry correctly got a goal ruled out for offside?

You would rather a team lost a game to a bad decision?

Isn't that mental?

 

[Bristol_bnose3]

Offside isn't a matter of opinion. You are on or off.

But when it comes down to frame rates and a guy deciding when the ball was released and where exactly to position the line it IS still a matter of opinion.
Using it to decide offside in situations where it comes down to the width of a pixel on a screen is absurd and does absolutely nothing to benefit the game.

Football was a simple game, it’s now moving in a very bad direction that nobody really wants.

 

[Big D]

If you look at and listen to this VAR review, I think it highlights why it's nonsensical to try and establish incredibly tight offside calls using VAR. Which frame to use for when the ball is kicked? Then where to draw the lines? Both subjective and open to abuse. It's so easy to move the lines a fraction to the left or right to either get it right, or to get it wrong, or to get the outcome you want. And the margins are so tiny, it's virtually impossible for anyone to 'prove' it was wrong. VAR on very tight offsides is far from infallible.

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[wee bud's pit boots]

VAR hasn't improved the game, only detracted from it by interminable delays, muted goal celebrations, constant argument over millimeters, and the inevitable claims of judgmental errors among VAR officials. Before the advent of VAR, and after any goal, I always looked to see if the ref was pointing to the center circle (or not). This ecstatic or agonizing moment is now denied by technology. Bin VAR.

We don't need to bin VAR, we need to bin yahoo officials in charge of it.

 

[JMCK]

You want VAR scrapped because Coventry correctly got a goal ruled out for offside?

You would rather a team lost a game to a bad decision?

Isn't that mental?

Football did very well before VAR, arguably the most popular sport that has ever existed; one that has dramatic effect as a key component to it. "Bad decision" had that goal stood in natural circumstances? Hardly.

 

[stefanovitch]

Stepping out is a fundamental part of defending.

I get that but when it becomes so marginal then I think the benefit of the doubt should go to the attacker unless it's clear and obvious offside

 

[allygaitken]

I believe that we will look back at this period of football being referereed by technology and Muppets drawing lines as an anomaly in an otherwise perfect sport. The joy has been removed from celebrating a goal as you are never quite sure whether it will be pulled back for an infringement. I would love to go back to the linesmen and referee making the decisions, whether right or wrong, it is part of the game of football and worked reasonably well for 150 years. I can see it being binned within 5 years

 

[DBallZ]

I believe that we will look back at this period of football being referereed by technology and Muppets drawing lines as an anomaly in an otherwise perfect sport. The joy has been removed from celebrating a goal as you are never quite sure whether it will be pulled back for an infringement. I would love to go back to the linesmen and referee making the decisions, whether right or wrong, it is part of the game of football and worked reasonably well for 150 years. I can see it being binned within 5 years

I agree with the sentiment but we’ll all say that until it has a major impact on the outcome of a Rangers game and fans of other clubs are similar.

Easy enough to be reasonable right up until we’re robbed of a cup by an offside goal.

 

[wee bud's pit boots]

Is there any point in having linesman now

They'll still come in handy for the filth.

 

[SymonSays]

You'd see strikers stretching out an arm & hand as far as possible, we could end up talking about fingertips when the rest of the player is offside.

We already do, or part of a player's foot, or his upper torso, or any sliver of daylight between him and the defender. We're turning football into its American namesake - overridden by technology, multi-ref interpretations, and timeouts.

 

[Discombob]

I was as disappointed as anyone that the goal didn't stand but he looked clearly offside to me on the first replay. I didn't even think it looked that close. I was surprised when I saw the lines were that close.

The only change I would make is that I would make the measuring point where the players' feet are rather than any part of their body. Why someone leaning towards the goal should be penalised for that I have no idea. It doesn't match with the encroachment rule we saw recently where leaning in doesn't matter so long as your feet are behind the line. Similarly a keeper can lean as much as he likes at a penalty so long as his foot is on the line. So why do we treat offside differently?

Agree with this. It's not like someone gains an unfair advantage on the defender by having their head in an offside position - as if it's detachable from the rest of his body and can run through and score a (headered) goal all by itself!

Yet, under current rules, as you can score with your head, it's offside if your head is in front of the defender's legs. It should be feet placement only.

Going further, I'm sure we'd now have the technology to place location markers at the front or back of all boots and a contact/pressure sensor in the ball to very quickly and objectively adjudge offside based on where each marker is on the pitch when the ball is struck.

 

[Andre55]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1782131160224518633

clearly not offside and Coventry robbed

 

[JMCK]

I believe that we will look back at this period of football being referereed by technology and Muppets drawing lines as an anomaly in an otherwise perfect sport. The joy has been removed from celebrating a goal as you are never quite sure whether it will be pulled back for an infringement. I would love to go back to the linesmen and referee making the decisions, whether right or wrong, it is part of the game of football and worked reasonably well for 150 years. I can see it being binned within 5 years

I agree with everything in your post, apart from that last part, unfortunately; sadly, I think we are stuck with it.

 

[stooler]

Honestly even with the lines I still can't tell if the Coventry player is off or not.

I do like wengers idea that if any part of you is level you're onside

Sounds good in theory but all you are doing is moving the boundary for the call

What happens when the last part of the body is half an inch away from being level. People will say it's so harsh when it's such a fine margin, which is basically where we are at just now

The funny thing is before VAR the officials missed so much and there was outrage for blatantly offside goals or penalties being missed.
VAR has corrected a lot of that and while improvements must still be made, we are far better off

I would also rather a 1 minute delay for the correct decision than a hasty call that is wrong

 

[Brian_Fantana]

Any black & white rule with offside will still lead to lines being drawn and time taken.

There might have to be some sort of standard brought in where a yard wide line for each player is overlayed onto a non-zoomed in picture.

If the lines don’t touch, then the error is clear & obvious. If it’s within a yard either way, the on-field decision stands.

 

[Grommitt]

All they need to do is create a tolerance (say 6 inches). If the gap between the lines is within this tolerance you say its onside. Offside wasn't invented to catch someone 1 inch in front of the defense.

You would need the lines to be drawn independently of one another to prevent a VAR operator, say Willie Collum, from moving the lines until touching when it suits him. Or not, also when it suits him.

This should be done anyway as it stands. You pull one line to the attacker. That is then fixed and disappears from the operators' screens. The line to the defender is then created and fixed. Finally, a button is pressed to reveal both lines which were drawn without reference to each other. I'd like to think that is how it is already done, but I doubt it.

 

[Chocolateleftfoot]

Football did very well before VAR, arguably the most popular sport that has ever existed; one that has dramatic effect as a key component to it. "Bad decision" had that goal stood in natural circumstances? Hardly.

Really don't get that argument at all. Football did well before pass backs, substitutions and penalty shoot outs as well but the game has moved on.

The technology exists now to ensure the offside rule can be enforced properly. You might not agree with the rule but that's a different argument.

We lost a final a couple of years ago to a bad offside call. It will never happen again. Why would anyone want to go back to that?

 

[two2tango]

He was offside.

People are letting their heart rule their head on this one. Because it was plucky Coventry who were on the wrong end of the decision, and because lots of people hate Man United, people are outraged about it.

Nevertheless, he was offside. VAR did its job.

If that's a Celtic goal in an Old Firm match which is correctly ruled out using VAR, I doubt anyone on here would be complaining that VAR is ruining the game.

Like that’s ever going to happen in an old firm game bud not a chance

 

[two2tango]

You would need the lines to be drawn independently of one another to prevent a VAR operator, say Willie Collum, from moving the lines until touching when it suits him. Or not, also when it suits him.

This should be done anyway as it stands. You pull one line to the attacker. That is then fixed and disappears from the operators' screens. The line to the defender is then created and fixed. Finally, a button is pressed to reveal both lines which were drawn without reference to each other. I'd like to think that is how it is already done, but I doubt it.

Good point that

 

[Chocolateleftfoot]

But when it comes down to frame rates and a guy deciding when the ball was released and where exactly to position the line it IS still a matter of opinion.
Using it to decide offside in situations where it comes down to the width of a pixel on a screen is absurd and does absolutely nothing to benefit the game.

Football was a simple game, it’s now moving in a very bad direction that nobody really wants.

It's a multimillion pound system, not some guy with an etch a sketch. The lines aren't "drawn"

It uses 5 calibrated cameras and a calibrated 3D map of the pitch. The accuracy isn't in any doubt.

As the technology improves, decisions will be made almost instantly and accurately. Surely that's what everyone wants?

If people can't accept decisions when 5 cameras and 3 officials determine it's offside, they aren't going to accept 1 guys best guess when he's running 30 yards away with a flag in his hand.