GovanFront4
Well-Known Member
I never seen the goal last night but I genuinely struggle to get annoyed about that goal being chopped off. It was a clear foul in the build up.
Havertz goal last night where there was a foul in the build up
- Thread starter WinkieWATP
- Start date
El Jock Grande Sabia
Well-Known Member
Was it this 1?
VAR chaos in Germany as ref calls for half-time before dragging players back out
The Bundesliga match caused confusion as the decision was awarded with both teams in the dressing room
www-mirror-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
GreigC
Well-Known Member
Semi final I think it was. Soutb Africa game?
no I know, I get that… but you’ll have ones that are clearly outside the box from the get go and never looked at for a penalty that are virtually the same place - you need to then argue that effectively because we looked at something for a penalty that’s “more” of a free kick than one that we didn’t in almost the same spot…If it’s a penalty check and it’s deemed outside the box then award the freekick instead. I’m not suggesting freekicks in the midfield etc should be checked ffs
Which is what I mean by “run of the mill” free kicks, if you start introducing VAR for them around the box too - where do you stop?
GreigC
Well-Known Member
I think the issue comes from perceived inconsistency - which if you’re comparing like for like, would be fair enough
Sadly, comparing to a different nation, with a slightly different interpretation isn’t quite like for like
Which, to be fair, is also part of the issue
ClockworkOrange
Well-Known Member
Has it been confirmed anywhere that it was too far back to be deemed a foul? I'm not sure it has, and it was definitely checked.
It looked like a foul from one angle and not from the other.
It looked like a foul from one angle and not from the other.
QueensferryCR3Bear
Well-Known Member
They do.
Refs in Scotland operate for the benefit of Celtic. Be that giving decisions that benefit them on the pitch, benefit Rangers opponents or penalise Rangers.
The video library of this is extensive now.
TQ3
Well-Known Member
Thank you. @WinkieWATP kudos to you.
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
I've seen nothing at all to the effect that it 'was too far back' so I'm dubious about that. Seems its only the opinion of the lassie on TV. The most common reports I've seen indicate that Chelsea had legitimate claims for a foul but that it wasn't given. Nothing more.
warfieldranger
Well-Known Member
There's now no point in more experienced referees letting a few tackles go - to keep the game flowing - VAR will just go back and cancel any goal scored in the following attack.
Macdonsj
Well-Known Member
part of the issue up here is the inconsistency
Dessers tries to nick the ball, gets kicked - given as a foul
1 week later, Turnbull deliberately places his foot between ball & defender (with no attempt to play the ball - in contract to Dessers) purely to draw the foul and the penalty was given
in our case - the "interceptor" is punished
1 week later - the defender is punished
both cases a certain team benefitted
TheDerryend
Well-Known Member
I hear you, but I also seen the incident in the African nations semi final when Nigeria broke up the pitch scoring to make it 2-0 and what we thought booked them a place in the final. Next thing, not only is the goal ruled out, it goes up the other end for a penalty to South Africa.
Nobody noticed this at the time and to allow play to go on, with a classic breakaway goal is farcical. These things need called right away instead of allowing a passage of play which finished up at the other 18 yard box.
TheDerryend
Well-Known Member
Seen that. Just wish I read through the replies pre rant.
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
@WinkieWATP @TQ3 @GreigC @El Jock Grande Sabia
It wasn't Germany - it was in the Czech Republic in 2019 in a game between Bohemians and Slavia Prague. Video footage in article. According to the article similar happened in The Dutch Super Cup in 2017 in a game between Feyenoord and Vitesse Arnhem.
I found it, eventually. Imagine this in an OF game.
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Trafalgar
Well-Known Member
There was. Sure Ghana were involved. Guy fouled but ref waved play on, think Ghana went up the park and scored. Mad celebrations, VAR pulled it back to the original foul which was deemed in the box, penalty awarded and scored.
Bluenose1979
Well-Known Member
That’s on the linesman to flag it at the end of the attack.
Up here it’s becoming clear the officials are hiding behind VAR and waiting for it to identify decisions rather than make them in play. It’s an absolute abuse/misuse of the system.
Notably Red Watch the other day was interesting as it looked at the Nottingham Forest controversy.
Dermot Gallagher was at pains to point out how down South they are actively trying to minimise VAR intervention in decisions and not re-referee games from the VAR station.
He more than once mentioned decisions that are given all the time North of the border but that wouldn’t be given down there, primarily handballs/minimal contact penalties.
It is literally the case of different refereeing standards ruining things.
Smkz23
Well-Known Member
They said in the commentary that VAR checked it and didn’t think it was a foul.
GreigC
Well-Known Member
I don’t thing PGMOL have it right at the moment either though
The balance is probably somewhere in the middle - which generally seems to be where UEFA are
looway
Well-Known Member
Either that or refs down there make it up as they go along.
This one always sticks out for me having watched the game at the time.
Slavia player challenged in the box. Inter break away and score at the other end....before VAR intervenes and gives a penalty to Slavia. Which Soucek scored.
34mins on the clock top left
ClockworkOrange
Well-Known Member
I think people are projecting a bit, yes.
It was a foul last night and a foul in our game. The only difference is that VAR didn't think last night's was a foul.
I honestly do think there should be some kind of signal that a foul may have been committed in the run-up to a goal. Having everyone celebrate a goal and then have it ruled out gives a massive, massive advantage to the other team.
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
Dessers one was a shocker as not only was it a ridiculous time to go back, the keeper save on the first shot made it a new phase of play, so should never have been considered even if he clattered him and the ref didn't see it as a foul
Actual cheating
Actual cheating
Not the rules though
Another anomaly in application of VAR was Butland's point-blank save from Shankland at Hampden in the first half. Shankland was clearly offside; not a disputable toenail decision, but clear for all to see. No offside given.
Balogun then immediately put the ball out for a corner direct from the rebound off Butland. Had Hearts scored from that corner, VAR could not then check Shankland's initial position in the shot/save action directly preceding the corner, it being in an earlier phase of play.
Hearts would have been awarded a goal, when the correct decision should have been a free-kick to Rangers for offside before the ball was put out.
Bluenose1979
Well-Known Member
You're probably right, but what I would say is that it at least feels like they are trying to find an appropriate balance to make the system work better for the flow of the game and to avoid it over-interfering.
It'll need to keep evolving and improving.
Up here, it feels like refs circle wagons, decry anyone who questions them and pulls down the shutters on any criticism or observation of the way the system and its users operates.
Very little contrition for mistakes/problems up here and essentially no public dialogue on controversies.
Smkz23
Well-Known Member
It didn’t, an opposition player would either have to gain possession or pass it to a team mate for that to happen.
GovanFront4
Well-Known Member
They 100% can rule out goals due to a foul the build up.
Der_Metzgermeister
Well-Known Member
This is from the VAR FAQ page...
"From what point does the VAR check incidents leading to a penalty or goal?
The VAR will only check the attacking possession phase that led to the penalty or goal.
The starting point will be limited to the immediate phase. The VAR may not go back to when the attacking team gained possession.
The VAR will consider the ability of the opposing defence to reset, and the momentum of the attack."
So does that mean they were wrong to look at the foul that led to us winning possession and scoring from?
"From what point does the VAR check incidents leading to a penalty or goal?
The VAR will only check the attacking possession phase that led to the penalty or goal.
The starting point will be limited to the immediate phase. The VAR may not go back to when the attacking team gained possession.
The VAR will consider the ability of the opposing defence to reset, and the momentum of the attack."
So does that mean they were wrong to look at the foul that led to us winning possession and scoring from?
Which is the point behind its being disallowed as soon as the attempted clearance is a new phase of play and should have only being checked till that point as although he made an arse of the clearance of be had put it out for a corner then its a corner.
It's rereffing game by not doing that
GovanFront4
Well-Known Member
Think it's worded poorly, as I've seen it happen in different competitions.
GreigC
Well-Known Member
That’s poor wording
“May not necessarily” would be a better choice I argue
So can go back, but depends on what happens in between too
Think it stems from the idea that England have a slightly broader definition on the change of APP as opposed to the ifab idea that stems almost towards clear possession or an uncontested clearance
temperance
Well-Known Member
Something similar happened at Chelsea v Spurs where Chelsea scored, it was knocked off by VAR for offside, but VAR also noted that a Spurs player had fouled a Chelsea player, and the result was offside goal, penalty to Chelsea and the Spurs player red carded.
The Blue Lamp
Well-Known Member
Funny that isn't it, how its always seems to be a certain team that continually benefit from this "incompetence" in Scotland. It must just be a coincidence.
valencia05
Well-Known Member
Or to not give penalties for clear handballs in the box like the New Year OF game
nasalsinatra
Well-Known Member
45 minutes - at the New Year game to find a reason to get Willie Collum off the hook!
The ref gave a free kick for that Turnbull one cause he thought it took place outside the box. VAR then said no take a look at it again cause it's inside the box and then the penalty was given.
muttley
Well-Known Member
I'm still waiting to see evidence that the " offside " decision against Sima was correct. In true Scottish media fashion, they just kept repeating that Sima was offside until it was accepted as reality, then swept under the carpet.
Grumpy Old Git
Well-Known Member
It’s bemusing that in 3 separate incidents in OF games in circa the last year goals have been chopped off for Rangers and the beneficiary has been Celtic FC.
In all instances the referees/VAR have been able to justify decisions which are difficult to understand.
It seems to me a very unlikely scenario that one team is the beneficiary on 3 occasions.virtually on a game to game basis.
GreigC
Well-Known Member
Okay mate…
Well if a decision is to be made what do you want the ref or VAR to do? They got the Dessers one right in the last game, they gave us a penalty for Silva and they got their penalty right so it was 3 correct decisions. The handball at the Piggery was a stonewaller but IF Sima was offside then the handball doesn't matter the issue with that whole incident was it took them nearly 40 minutes to tell us it was offside.
People keep mentioning the Alfie goal that got ruled out there last season if Clancy says he's ruled out for a push and the replays show 2 hands on the back of Johnston which backs Clancy's decision up whether you agree with it or not what do people want VAR to do?
The only debatable out with the Sima one has been the Dessers one in the first game of the season with him and Lagerbielke.
SSR
Well-Known Member
If they can't find anything I would put it past them going back to a previous game
Grumpy Old Git
Well-Known Member
Ok let’s assume or agree the last Dessers decision was correctly given as free kick.
Take the other decisions the first one you mention was not one of my contentious ones.
However the fact that Collum on Var ignored the procedures.
The offside part only came to light after the game when out the blue it turned out there was an offside decision.
The fact Var procedure was circumvented is an issue.
The Alfie goal was a stick on goal.
Fetus was jostling for position within the penalty box and was hands on Morelos.
Morelos reciprocated and any hands on by Morelos was minimal.
There was not a significant push and physical contact is part of football.
How that could be attributed to foul play by either of them is outrageous.
The Dessers incident where Roofe scored after Lagerbielge knocked the ball to far in front of him which allowed Dessers to gain possession of the ball without contact is outrageous as well.
Maybe you could outline an incident where Celtic FC were not the beneficiary of a major decision and had a goal denied during the same time period.?
On the Alfie goal that's your opinion I don't think it's a foul either and it's one of them Johnston has bought from Clancy. If Clancy tells VAR he's ruled it out for a push and replays back him up then only option is to go with the onfield decision otherwise VAR is re-refereeing the game.
I don't watch many of their games outwith us playing them so I couldn't tell you for your last point but there's a reason they want rid of VAR and it's cause decisions go against them.
GreigC
Well-Known Member
Something he’s very good at, and unfortunately we’re not…
55andcounting
Member
I was saying this at the time, it would have been better for the ball to hit the net, then for VAR to rule it out and we get the ball. Fact butland makes great save and we clear for a corner gives them them the advantage.
Think it was in the recent AFCON, wasn't it?
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
See post #63, the one I was thinking of was Czech. Though it seems there’s been a few that the same thing happened in.
DEJABLUE62
Well-Known Member
Every time
