If big leagues can't get VAR right what chance Scotland?

Offside is the biggest bugbear for me. When you see it in action, it's subjective and open to abuse on tight calls. That needs to be addressed. On top of that, in Scotland we don't have enough camera angles at all grounds to make a call on whether a big toe is offside or not. It's pure guesswork at times. In general though, money shouldn't come into it. It's down to the competency of the officials. If they stuck to the 'clear and obvious error' principle it was supposed to be, it would be a start.
 
Big D said:
Offside is the biggest bugbear for me. When you see it in action, it's subjective and open to abuse on tight calls. That needs to be addressed. On top of that, in Scotland we don't have enough camera angles at all grounds to make a call on whether a big toe is offside or not. It's pure guesswork at times. In general though, money shouldn't come into it. It's down to the competency of the officials. If they stuck to the 'clear and obvious error' principle it was supposed to be, it would be a start.
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Offside was never about 'clear and obvious errors' though. The assumption is that offside is a factual decision and all goals should be checked for it.

There are obviously doubts over the accuracy of the camera frame rates and the human error in clicking on the exact right pixel that is the furthest forward body part of the players involved, so it is limited in how accurate it can be. It feels like it should be more automated and have error bands included that give the benefit to the attacker if the decision falls within the error bands.
 
It's farcical, I've used this analogy many a time, England spare no expense and have supposed Professionals everywhere, yet they still make colossal blunders.

The other massive issue is referees interpretation of an incident, there shouldn't be an interpretation, it should be the correct decision across the board, our 'goal' in first old firm game is an example of this, we had referees saying it was a foul and the correct decision, yet there were other referees saying the goal was wrongly disallowed and there should have been no foul.
 
When they released the audio for the disallowed goal in the Spurs v Liverpool game, it sounded a chaotic shambles and I wonder if the way they communicate with each other is part of the problem

I know rugby is a slower game, but they seem ro have got it right especially the way the officials communicate when the game is going on.
 
It was heehaw to do with scale and spending and resources that our officials couldn’t follow process or check a knowledge base to confirm a rule / process .

often smaller is better but only if your competent and on the side of the sport
 
The point that mhob are missing or maybe don’t want to see is that in Germany, England, Spain etc they get things wrong because of course they do but it isn’t every week or several times a week like in Scotland.

And also in some countries like Germany referees come out and explain decisions and don’t hide from them
 
Vader said:
Offside was never about 'clear and obvious errors' though. The assumption is that offside is a factual decision and all goals should be checked for it.

There are obviously doubts over the accuracy of the camera frame rates and the human error in clicking on the exact right pixel that is the furthest forward body part of the players involved, so it is limited in how accurate it can be. It feels like it should be more automated and have error bands included that give the benefit to the attacker if the decision falls within the error bands.
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To me, what you've done here is, first to disagree with the post you quoted, then completely agree with his point, but simply in greater detail?
 
In the end, it all comes down to human interpretation of VAR, and as we've witnessed repeatedly, it cannot be trusted up here not to be manipulated to ensure it suits Celtc's interest.
 
muttley said:
In the end, it all comes down to human interpretation of VAR, and as we've witnessed repeatedly, it cannot be trusted up here not to be manipulated to ensure it suits Celtc's interest.
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That's exactly it. The decisions that are open to interpretation always seem to
fall in the scums favour. Hardly surprising given the make up of the officials.
 
deedle said:
Transparent attempt by two Tim writers to deflect attention from the brazen cheating of Scottish officials,

Every reasonable person accepts that mistakes can be made - the central issue is that one club repeatedly gets the benefit of any doubt,
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I get mocked on here for saying it, but Celtc receive around 12-15 points a season from terrified or Celtc-supporting refs. It is almost impossible for us or anyone else to compete against that gangsterism.
 
Loyal Latina said:
To me, what you've done here is, first to disagree with the post you quoted, then completely agree with his point, but simply in greater detail?
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I took as if he was saying VAR was only supposed to be checking for clear and obvious errors with offside, which was never the case.

How factual it actually is is debatable, but the officials are told to assume it is 100% right when making their decision.
 
deedle said:
Transparent attempt by two Tim writers to deflect attention from the brazen cheating of Scottish officials,

Every reasonable person accepts that mistakes can be made - the central issue is that one club repeatedly gets the benefit of any doubt,
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This is the big thing. Other clubs are being robbed as well but just don't seem interested in calling it out.
 
Vader said:
Offside was never about 'clear and obvious errors' though. The assumption is that offside is a factual decision and all goals should be checked for it.

There are obviously doubts over the accuracy of the camera frame rates and the human error in clicking on the exact right pixel that is the furthest forward body part of the players involved, so it is limited in how accurate it can be. It feels like it should be more automated and have error bands included that give the benefit to the attacker if the decision falls within the error bands.
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Indeed, but as I say, when you see it in action it's far from factual. There are 3 points of subjectivity. When the ball was played. What point of the body the vertical line should be drawn from the body of the attacker. What point of the body the vertical line should be drawn from the body of the defender. Apparently there are 25 frames per second in the film viewed by VAR. Assessing exactly where the bodies were to within millimetres (and that's what we're talking on occasion) in relation to exactly when the ball was kicked, I'd suggest is virtually impossible. Then you see the vertical lines being moved left and right to what they think is the extremity of the goalscoring part of the body for the attacker and the extremity of the defender's body. Only after all that manual (and subjective) work is done are the offside lines drawn. So yes, I do think we need error bands, such as there being a clear gap in the offside lines before an attacker is judged offside. As I've seen posted elsewhere, judging someone to be a millimetre offside is not what the offside law was introduced for. Before VAR, officials were told the attacker was to be given the benefit of any doubt. I think we should get back to that. As you say, it's not a factual decision, so unless or until that becomes the case, I think they should stop pretending they can make these really tight judgements with complete accuracy.
 
Technology should be for offsides and goal line tech.

I’m fed up with handballs that nobody sees or cares about being given or instances like dessers disallowed goal against Celtic where the ref seen the foul and decided it wasn’t one yet the game is re refereed after
 
strathavenbear said:
When they released the audio for the disallowed goal in the Spurs v Liverpool game, it sounded a chaotic shambles and I wonder if the way they communicate with each other is part of the problem

I know rugby is a slower game, but they seem ro have got it right especially the way the officials communicate when the game is going on.
Click to expand...

Rugby has also become a joke sport with technology. Every game I seen to watch is littered with sin bins and red cards for nothing incidents
 
strathavenbear said:
When they released the audio for the disallowed goal in the Spurs v Liverpool game, it sounded a chaotic shambles and I wonder if the way they communicate with each other is part of the problem

I know rugby is a slower game, but they seem ro have got it right especially the way the officials communicate when the game is going on.
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Absolutely.

But the last thing the filth, their placemen and sellik minded officials want is transparency.
 
paphosranger said:
Aye, but apart fae all of them?
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It highlights the tinted-specs/fickle nature of football fans.

Everyone thinks these things only go against their club or for their rivals. It's nonsense and people bin the facts to suit their own reality.

The examples above:

Motherwell complain abour decisions going against them in favour of Aberdeen
Aberdeen complain about decisions that went in Livingston's favour
Hibs complain about decisions going in favour of Aberdeen
St Johnstone complain about decisions that went in favour of Motherwell

That's not even taking into account the clusterfck of Rangers/Celtic and the narratives/decisions between us.

The reality is we have a far below standard of refereeing going on, lower investment in the technology and general ineptitude without an open appetite for accepting responsibility and being better.

All clubs are going to be on the receiving end of bad decisions both in their favour and against. It's the frequency of it that is alarming and the fact that any focus on it seems to be twisted into "poor refs being targeted", rather than "yes, it's not what it should be and here's the plan to improve it".

Then the ramping up of "just bin it" as a more convenient line, because it's easier to make VAR as a concept the problem instead of owning the poor execution and bettering the game - which is Scottish football to a tee.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
It highlights the tinted-specs/fickle nature of football fans.

Everyone thinks these things only go against their club or for their rivals. It's nonsense and people bin the facts to suit their own reality.

The examples above:

Motherwell complain abour decisions going against them in favour of Aberdeen
Aberdeen complain about decisions that went in Livingston's favour
Hibs complain about decisions going in favour of Aberdeen
St Johnstone complain about decisions that went in favour of Motherwell

That's not even taking into account the clusterfck of Rangers/Celtic and the narratives/decisions between us.

The reality is we have a far below standard of refereeing going on, lower investment in the technology and general ineptitude without an open appetite for accepting responsibility and being better.

All clubs are going to be on the receiving end of bad decisions both in their favour and against. It's the frequency of it that is alarming and the fact that any focus on it seems to be twisted into "poor refs being targeted", rather than "yes, it's not what it should be and here's the plan to improve it".

Then the ramping up of "just bin it" as a more convenient line, because it's easier to make VAR as a concept the problem instead of owning the poor execution and bettering the game - which is Scottish football to a tee.
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Top post imo, and is similar to what I was getting at on another thread.

Problem being is Scottish football is a sheep in the grand scheme of things, I can't see them being pro-active in trying to fix the issues, train and work on them and will instead do whatever they are told by others. Couple in with all you have posted about the standards and investments we have a complete clusterfuck.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
It highlights the tinted-specs/fickle nature of football fans.

Everyone thinks these things only go against their club or for their rivals. It's nonsense and people bin the facts to suit their own reality.

The examples above:

Motherwell complain abour decisions going against them in favour of Aberdeen
Aberdeen complain about decisions that went in Livingston's favour
Hibs complain about decisions going in favour of Aberdeen
St Johnstone complain about decisions that went in favour of Motherwell

That's not even taking into account the clusterfck of Rangers/Celtic and the narratives/decisions between us.

The reality is we have a far below standard of refereeing going on, lower investment in the technology and general ineptitude without an open appetite for accepting responsibility and being better.

All clubs are going to be on the receiving end of bad decisions both in their favour and against. It's the frequency of it that is alarming and the fact that any focus on it seems to be twisted into "poor refs being targeted", rather than "yes, it's not what it should be and here's the plan to improve it".

Then the ramping up of "just bin it" as a more convenient line, because it's easier to make VAR as a concept the problem instead of owning the poor execution and bettering the game - which is Scottish football to a tee.
Click to expand...

I'd love to know what VAR decisions have went in our favour against the yahoos?

in fact, I'd love to know about any VAR decisions that go against the yahoos?
 
The scum want it gone, for good reason. We must fight to keep VAR.

They have had it work for them In every OF game, there is no doubt about that. But over a season, it has got us a number of decisions we would not have had.
 
Andy26 said:
The point that mhob are missing or maybe don’t want to see is that in Germany, England, Spain etc they get things wrong because of course they do but it isn’t every week or several times a week like in Scotland.

And also in some countries like Germany referees come out and explain decisions and don’t hide from them
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The media in this country only go full on when a contentious decision goes against that mob.That won’t be happening in any other country in the world.

Thats what we face and its costing us millions of ££££
 
I would say pre VAR linesmen would get offsides wrong all the time, probably had a accuracy of 50% on the really tight ones.

Even if VAR gets the odd one wrong we have still massively increased the % of correct offside calls with it.
 
Integrity around decision making is a much bigger issue than the size of the league. This just sounds like a big boy did it and ran away type of excuse with no interest in getting to the heart of the matter.
 
BlancaBear said:
I would say pre VAR linesmen would get offsides wrong all the time, probably had a accuracy of 50% on the really tight ones.

Even if VAR gets the odd one wrong we have still massively increased the % of correct offside calls with it.
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Bunch of ratbag scummy cheating tims. IMO.
 
I find it mental that every conversation about VAR or referee standards on here boils down to 'Celtic minded corruption'.

It's obvious to anyone who watches a decent amount of football outside the SPL that bad refeering and terrible use of VAR is not the sole preserve of our league. Therefore, it is just possible that refs being on the payroll of Peter Lawell might not actually be a real thing.

A mental way of looking at things i know, but worth considering.....
 
Bristol_bnose3 said:
I find it mental that every conversation about VAR or referee standards on here boils down to 'Celtic minded corruption'.

It's obvious to anyone who watches a decent amount of football outside the SPL that bad refeering and terrible use of VAR is not the sole preserve of our league. Therefore, it is just possible that refs being on the payroll of Peter Lawell might not actually be a real thing.

A mental way of looking at things i know, but worth considering.....
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I've considered it and nah, you are wrong.

VAR decisions in four out of the last five league games against them (the other one being meaningless) tells us otherwise.
 
I was watching an English game last week (may have been cup or EPL, I can't remember) and the co-commentator within 5 seconds was saying something like "we are hearing VAR communication and it was not a foul".

On our game at the weekend we heard (about 20-30 secs after the ref stopped), "not hearing anything from the VAR... /silence/... ... ..."
 
GazzaLegend said:
The scum want it gone, for good reason. We must fight to keep VAR.

They have had it work for them In every OF game, there is no doubt about that. But over a season, it has got us a number of decisions we would not have had.
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That's the one I can't get my head around, other than referees, too cowardly, or corrupt to do their job.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
It highlights the tinted-specs/fickle nature of football fans.

Everyone thinks these things only go against their club or for their rivals. It's nonsense and people bin the facts to suit their own reality.

The examples above:

Motherwell complain abour decisions going against them in favour of Aberdeen
Aberdeen complain about decisions that went in Livingston's favour
Hibs complain about decisions going in favour of Aberdeen
St Johnstone complain about decisions that went in favour of Motherwell

That's not even taking into account the clusterfck of Rangers/Celtic and the narratives/decisions between us.

The reality is we have a far below standard of refereeing going on, lower investment in the technology and general ineptitude without an open appetite for accepting responsibility and being better.

All clubs are going to be on the receiving end of bad decisions both in their favour and against. It's the frequency of it that is alarming and the fact that any focus on it seems to be twisted into "poor refs being targeted", rather than "yes, it's not what it should be and here's the plan to improve it".

Then the ramping up of "just bin it" as a more convenient line, because it's easier to make VAR as a concept the problem instead of owning the poor execution and bettering the game - which is Scottish football to a tee.
Click to expand...

The examples you have given? Were the clubs correct to call out VAR?

I don't know because I don't watch their games?
 
It was working fine until they found ways to manipulate it. In any line of work people will eventually find ways to cheat and manipulate.
 
Why
Vader said:
Offside was never about 'clear and obvious errors' though. The assumption is that offside is a factual decision and all goals should be checked for it.

There are obviously doubts over the accuracy of the camera frame rates and the human error in clicking on the exact right pixel that is the furthest forward body part of the players involved, so it is limited in how accurate it can be. It feels like it should be more automated and have error bands included that give the benefit to the attacker if the decision falls within the error bands.
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Why should the benefit be given to an attacker. I don't think defenders would be best pleased at that idea or managers who instructed defenders to push out to catch players offside.
 
mdingwall said:


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Allegiances are not in the public domain.
They are given to the body responsible for appointing referees for individual fixtures.
It is to ensure the perception of individual bias by referees does not occur and to protect referees and the opposite of being a target.
In Scotland we have the ludicrous situation of say Willie Collum a religious teacher in a RC school is asked to referee matches involving the OF.
The fact he is appointed gives rise to the situation of being accused of bias before he makes any decision.
Referees should be taken away from the situation where they are accused of bias simply by being appointed.

Undoubtedly Scottish referees are very likely to be poorer officials because the are not professional as in England.
This is exacerbated by the 2 Bob VAR system employed in Scotland where the technology is so inferior to England where they have about 5 times the amount of cameras for angles.
 
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I guess the big problems are that regardless of the technology it's still humans that are making the decisions. Humans are open to making mistakes and deliberately not making the correct decision. Here in Scotland we have the technology in place and a group of incompetent people looking after it that are easily led/commanded in making decision suit certain parties.

Would be so good if we could just take the human factor out altogether but that is not going to happen any time soon.
 
paphosranger said:
Top post imo, and is similar to what I was getting at on another thread.

Problem being is Scottish football is a sheep in the grand scheme of things, I can't see them being pro-active in trying to fix the issues, train and work on them and will instead do whatever they are told by others. Couple in with all you have posted about the standards and investments we have a complete clusterfuck.
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It’s a shocking post, it doesn’t in any way shape or form cater to conspiracy theories, or point out any dodgy decisions that we’ve got, or that have gone against the mob from the east end

Head in sand stuff

/end sarcasm
 
wee bud's pit boots said:
I'd love to know what VAR decisions have went in our favour against the yahoos?

in fact, I'd love to know about any VAR decisions that go against the yahoos?
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Maybe be better to ask what VAR decisions go against them that could be incorrect or at least controversial and end up costing them points. I can't recall any.
 
Bristol_bnose3 said:
I find it mental that every conversation about VAR or referee standards on here boils down to 'Celtic minded corruption'.

It's obvious to anyone who watches a decent amount of football outside the SPL that bad refeering and terrible use of VAR is not the sole preserve of our league. Therefore, it is just possible that refs being on the payroll of Peter Lawell might not actually be a real thing.

A mental way of looking at things i know, but worth considering.....
Click to expand...
Why can't there be poor refereeing in general and favouritism to Celtic?

Why does it have to be either/or?

I've never understood the logic (or lack of) in this argument.
 
I notice what they don't mention is the abysmal performances of our top referees and that's why they are not considered, never mind 'overlooked', for the Euros.
 
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