Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

[Drumchapel-Bear]

He lied about Whyte being a good deal and he lied about being “duped” mate.He also lied about so much more as whytes trial revealed.

I dont buy that he didn't know Whyte was dodgy I'm with you on that. I'm just saying he had no control of the situation.

20m over a 10 year period on a tax avoidance scheme is absolutely nothing. 2m a year is the salary of 2 players at the club.

 

[Southpaws]

How is this a good thing? Its just a distraction at this point. Focus on the here and now rather than what's been and gone. We're not going to get compensation or anything we still owed millions for dodging tax. It is frustrating but there's more important things now.

Dodged Tax, really? We ran perfectly legal, at the time of their inception, Employee Benefit Schemes (EBT’s) and did not as you erroneously claim ‘dodge tax’. HMRC retrospectively decided to disallow said schemes and negotiated settlements with other clubs who had historically deployed them.

HMRC rebuffed our chairman’s offer(s), grossly inflated the burden of debt,leaked privileged information about our case and despite losing court case after court case against us almost unprecedentedly fought us and only us to the bitter end.

It is quite clear to me and others that you cannot put Irish diaspora Celtc types in positions of power as they will undoubtedly abuse that position to indulge their ridiculously over egged, hateful obsession in regard to Rangers FC.

It is my hope that this is truly the inflection point which precipitates the fall of the house of cards suggested by Dave King last year. Further we as a supporter group and club must pursue the perpetrators with an unsurpassed vigour until it leads us to the puppet masters and architects of our near demise.

Therefore to all filth participants in this litany of lies and corruption, rest assured that no stone will be left unturned and no dark corner will be spared the spotlight in our quest to bring you to justice.

Tick tock scumothy!!

 

[deedle]

You seem to be hinting that Murray kniew other clubs had paid less and that he hadn't taken the necessary steps to settle with HMRC. Let me know of not. If it is, what would he have had to gain from not doing so?

Murray was friendly with David Dein and Arsenal's EBT scheme was supposedly based on Rangers'. Arsenal decided to scrap all tax avoidance schemes they were using in 2005 and agreed a settlement with HMRC. I think it is highly likely if not certain David Murray would have heard the details.

To compare the 'deal' Arsenal negotiated with HMRC we'd have to know how much was paid into the EBT scheme and the sum paid to HMRC in 2005.

In 2008, Ibrox was raided by police ostensibly in relation to the Boumsong transfer. Documents obtained were passed to HMRC. At the same time, HMRC was known to be launching an attack on schemes like EBTs. Celtic scrapped Juninho's EBT that year.

At this point, I believe Murray still had a choice. However, the club continued to use EBTs.

The first news of the tax crisis facing the club came from a brief statement by Douglas Park in April 2010. Murray obviously wanted the story kept quiet.

Craig Whyte was paraded as a potential buyer towards the end of 2010 and the FTTT began in January 2011. Whyte would have been a red rag to a bull as far as HMRC was concerned.


I think we had a chance in 2008 to reach an agreement with HMRC but Murray's arrogance prevented it. In October 2009 Donald Muir was appointed as a director - Murray had stood down two months previously.

The argument about other clubs paying proportionately less needs to be backed up in terms of when they settled and the terms involved. Did any risk being taken to a tax tribunal?


People who may have been interested in buying the club would have wanted an indemnity against a future tax bill and this was something Murray and Lloyds wouldn't accept.

 

[Theportyunionjack]

Murray was friendly with David Dein and Arsenal's EBT scheme was supposedly based on Rangers'. Arsenal decided to scrap all tax avoidance schemes they were using in 2005 and agreed a settlement with HMRC. I think it is highly likely if not certain David Murray would have heard the details.

To compare the 'deal' Arsenal negotiated with HMRC we'd have to know how much was paid into the EBT scheme and the sum paid to HMRC in 2005.

In 2008, Ibrox was raided by police ostensibly in relation to the Boumsong transfer. Documents obtained were passed to HMRC. At the same time, HMRC was known to be launching an attack on schemes like EBTs. Celtic scrapped Juninho's EBT that year.

At this point, I believe Murray still had a choice. However, the club continued to use EBTs.

The first news of the tax crisis facing the club came from a brief statement by Douglas Park in April 2010. Murray obviously wanted the story kept quiet.

Craig Whyte was paraded as a potential buyer towards the end of 2010 and the FTTT began in January 2011. Whyte would have been a red rag to a bull as far as HMRC was concerned.


I think we had a chance in 2008 to reach an agreement with HMRC but Murray's arrogance prevented it. In October 2009 Donald Muir was appointed as a director - Murray had stood down two months previously.

The argument about other clubs paying proportionately less needs to be backed up in terms of when they settled and the terms involved. Did any risk being taken to a tax tribunal?


People who may have been interested in buying the club would have wanted an indemnity against a future tax bill and this was something Murray and Lloyds wouldn't accept.

The last paragraph is spot on. Common sense would have said it should be settled first. Ultimately we don't know if Murray offered to settle. It's been reported he did, you rightly point out though that there's no concrete source. It might come out soon.

 

[Virgil Hilts]

The police should be nvestigating the manner in which HMRC have dealt with the oldco full stop.

 

[Nacho Novo]

HMRC saying they've got their figures right, BDO saying Rangers were overcharged by £50 million on the tax bill. Its going to go on and on for quite some time so strap yourselves in, 2020 could end up like parts of 2012 all over again with this issue rearing its head again, but obviously no where near as bad.

Sent down to the Third Division and had to work our way back up for nothing and HMRC blocked our CVA despite there being many potential buyers for the club. Illegal transfer embargo, numerous fines, -10 point deduction, the list goes on. Still no sorry from anyone.

As for Craig Whyte, his takeover team, Charles Green and his takeover team, the lot of them should be in jail for concucting the biggest scandal in world football history as far as I'm concerned. As much as David Murray got us into this mess, the debt was decreasing every year, so why the urgency from Lloyds Bank to sell?

Former Celtic Chairman, John Reid, was the driving force to send us down.

 

[Virgil Hilts]

HMRC saying they've got their figures right, BDO saying Rangers were overcharged by £50 million on the tax bill. Its going to go on and on for quite some time so strap yourselves in, 2020 could end up like parts of 2012 all over again with this issue rearing its head again, but obviously no where near as bad.

Sent down to the Third Division and had to work our way back up for nothing and HMRC blocked our CVA despite there being many potential buyers for the club. Illegal transfer embargo, numerous fines, -10 point deduction, the list goes on. Still no sorry from anyone.

As for Craig Whyte, his takeover team, Charles Green and his takeover team, the lot of them should be in jail for concucting the biggest scandal in world football history as far as I'm concerned.

BGO should make a reportto law enforcement.

HMRC cannot be trusted.

 

[Haining84]

It’ll be interesting to see if The Times have any follow up stories coming out.

 

[ChildOfGoth]

It’ll be interesting to see if The Times have any follow up stories coming out.

That’s what makes sense as this stories content unfolded some months ago and you would imagine it’s a starter , a refresher , for the next chapter . Some have said a BDO update is due next month .

 

[possil bear]

It’ll be interesting to see if The Times have any follow up stories coming out.

i dont think the times will let this go so it could make for a good scrap between the two of them hopefully the times will show them up for what they are

 

[Lawsome]

HMRC saying they've got their figures right, BDO saying Rangers were overcharged by £50 million on the tax bill. Its going to go on and on for quite some time so strap yourselves in, 2020 could end up like parts of 2012 all over again with this issue rearing its head again, but obviously no where near as bad.

Sent down to the Third Division and had to work our way back up for nothing and HMRC blocked our CVA despite there being many potential buyers for the club. Illegal transfer embargo, numerous fines, -10 point deduction, the list goes on. Still no sorry from anyone.

As for Craig Whyte, his takeover team, Charles Green and his takeover team, the lot of them should be in jail for concucting the biggest scandal in world football history as far as I'm concerned. As much as David Murray got us into this mess, the debt was decreasing every year, so why the urgency from Lloyds Bank to sell?

Former Celtic Chairman, John Reid, was the driving force to send us down.

This needs repeated, and repeated, and repeated. The question needs to be asked from all corners of our support and must not allow any of it to go away quietly.

Everything that happened to us, the way it was allowed to happen and the very sinister invisible hands that leave many suspicious questions - all need answered to.

 

[Ponientebear]

Exactly.

If it comes to pass as we are found of being Totally fcked over by HMRC etc then I'll take back every single bad word I've said about Murray up till now.

Could be Huge amounts of humble pie being eaten.

Humble pie my arse ! Murray still sold us down the river to a crook who hadn’t a pot to piss in for the princely some of .......£1.

 

[Ponientebear]

The police should be nvestigating the manner in which HMRC have dealt with the oldco full stop.

Unfortunately I would trust Jacques Clouseau to investigate this more than the Keystone cops that is Police Scotland.

 

[monkey magic]

Unfortunately I would trust Jacques Clouseau to investigate this more than the Keystone cops that is Police Scotland.

Scotland is up there with tin pot dictatorships where nepotism and corruption are concerned, and that is just under Devolution.

 

[douzpwa]

HMRC saying they've got their figures right, BDO saying Rangers were overcharged by £50 million on the tax bill. Its going to go on and on for quite some time so strap yourselves in, 2020 could end up like parts of 2012 all over again with this issue rearing its head again, but obviously no where near as bad.

Sent down to the Third Division and had to work our way back up for nothing and HMRC blocked our CVA despite there being many potential buyers for the club. Illegal transfer embargo, numerous fines, -10 point deduction, the list goes on. Still no sorry from anyone.

As for Craig Whyte, his takeover team, Charles Green and his takeover team, the lot of them should be in jail for concucting the biggest scandal in world football history as far as I'm concerned. As much as David Murray got us into this mess, the debt was decreasing every year, so why the urgency from Lloyds Bank to sell?

Former Celtic Chairman, John Reid, was the driving force to send us down.

Lloydstsb wanted to sell to get their money back for fear of losing it to the btc! Think it was Muir who sought White if memory serves they were behind White getting the ticketus loan and forced Murray to sell rangers to White or lose his empire so deal went through!

Later on again if memory serves White revealed that lloydstsb renegade on a deal that they would help him get rangers on condition he pays what rangers owed the bank and that they would give him an overdraft of same said amount but once the bank got their money they fecked off!

Now imho this contributed to White not paying tax and the rest put us through hell! I could be wrong but the two to benefit from the ticketus money were lloydstsb and White one got their money and the other got their hands on our club, the bank played a blinder to get their money imo but both played a major part along with hmrc in what happened to us!

A lot of people will take it right back to the beginning of ebts and blame Murray my own view and understanding is regardless of the ebts which were accepted as ok before being retrospectively rule changed by hmrc and the ridiculous amounts they claimed to be owed including charges did scare potential buyers and had they not allowed leaks and massive amounts to be branded about I believe lloydstsb would not have blackmailed Murray and got White involved at all had they known if it were 20m as claimed?

I believe these three are the main villains! This drags up a lot of bad feelings takes me back and though i could be wrong I think even back then that I am right and that has always been my opinion others may respectively differ?

 

[douzpwa]

Humble pie my arse ! Murray still sold us down the river to a crook who hadn’t a pot to piss in for the princely some of .......£1.

You are right but you also have to acknowledge he was forced to sell to White by the bank who threatened him with his personal business!

 

[monkey magic]

You are right but you also have to acknowledge he was forced to sell to White by the bank who threatened him with his personal business!

Murray was trying to sell us long before the ludicrous tax bill made an appearance, mate. Perhaps he'd heard it was coming down the track ? However, if it is found that our tax bill should only have been a manageable £ 20 million, serious questions need to be asked of HMRC.

 

[douzpwa]

Murray was trying to sell us long before the ludicrous tax bill made an appearance, mate. Perhaps he'd heard it was coming down the track ? However, if it is found that our tax bill should only have been a manageable £ 20 million, serious questions need to be asked of HMRC.

Yes he was but it did not happen then this retrospective stuff came in and as said lloydstsb did what they did to get their money and this was down to inflated figures being branded about am afraid!

 

[Purpolaris]

It’ll be interesting to see if The Times have any follow up stories coming out.

I would like them to re-visit the HMRC leaks and start highlighting them. Start asking questions of HMRC regarding this. Let's see how quick HMRC put out a twitter press release in reply to that one.

 

[deedle]

It was Murray rather than Lloyds who brought in Whyte. Of course, Lloyds would have exerted pressure.

Due to the failings of the Scottish criminal justice system we’re never going to find out exactly what happened but it is difficult to see how Whyte could have got his hands on the Ticketus money without authorisation from Murray and Rangers.


The ‘grossing up’ of the EBT bill undoubtedly blocked any potential bids from credible buyers. But when was the club presented with this?

There must have been a point when HMRC’s stance changed from simply wanting payment of tax and NI on the EBTs to one that added penalties. The sensible and logical decision would have been to scrap EBTs in 2008 and agree to settle with HMRC on the same terms as Arsenal. As far as I’m aware we’ve never been told when the board was informed of the situation re HMRC. Was it misled?


Despite the vast sums claimed to be owed by the club when it entered administration, Rangers FC benefited by only £18m from the EBT scheme. State and local government aid to Celtic over the past three decades surely exceeds that figure.

 

[Laudrup11Cooper]

I’m a little in fact more than a little concerned that because HMRC and every media outlet apart from The Times themseves, have disparaged and called the story BS that the whole story will be dropped, without further investigation.
Hopefully King and the board are working dilligently behind the scenes and investigating the story themselves.
By the way…if it was complete BS how come players got letters to say they didn’t have to pay now on their ebt’s?
Or was that complete bs as well?

 

[Bluecares]

I’m a little in fact more than a little concerned that because HMRC and every media outlet apart from The Times themseves, have disparaged and called the story BS that the whole story will be dropped, without further investigation.
Hopefully King and the board are working dilligently behind the scenes and investigating the story themselves.
By the way…if it was complete BS how come players got letters to say they didn’t have to pay now on their ebt’s?
Or was that complete bs as well?

That is their agenda. So that the masses who tried to kill us off - and not just the scum - can justify their actions.

We, however, current and future Rangers fans should never believe or more importantly forget this.

Hopefully the Times will pursue further, we must.

 

[Drumchapel-Bear]

It was Murray rather than Lloyds who brought in Whyte. Of course, Lloyds would have exerted pressure.

Due to the failings of the Scottish criminal justice system we’re never going to find out exactly what happened but it is difficult to see how Whyte could have got his hands on the Ticketus money without authorisation from Murray and Rangers.


The ‘grossing up’ of the EBT bill undoubtedly blocked any potential bids from credible buyers. But when was the club presented with this?

There must have been a point when HMRC’s stance changed from simply wanting payment of tax and NI on the EBTs to one that added penalties. The sensible and logical decision would have been to scrap EBTs in 2008 and agree to settle with HMRC on the same terms as Arsenal. As far as I’m aware we’ve never been told when the board was informed of the situation re HMRC. Was it misled?


Despite the vast sums claimed to be owed by the club when it entered administration, Rangers FC benefited by only £18m from the EBT scheme. State and local government aid to Celtic over the past three decades surely exceeds that figure.

You got proof of this Deedle?

My understanding is Whyte came to the table more via Andrew Ellis. Ellis, Whyte, Ahmed etc all worked in the same circles.

Ellis came to the table on his own initially but didn't have the funding to go through with a deal.

 

[KYBear_74]

Like many of you, I believe this was and is a complete stitch up and now cover up.

The fact John Reid is linked is the link into that lot and aren't they just very experienced in shafting the innocent and covering their tracks.

Actually, in present day Scotland, they don't even have to cover them up. Incredibly, the haters shout the loudest, the victim is vilified and they all have a laugh.

And I'm serious, the people in charge of the narrative, have a laugh and minimize all for us, blow up anything against us.

Funny how this all plays against the newly determined focus some of our best have to bring them to justice over horrific child abuse over decades of time.

I wouldn't put any sinister plan beyond these demented minds.

 

[Turrabear]

I’m a little in fact more than a little concerned that because HMRC and every media outlet apart from The Times themseves, have disparaged and called the story BS that the whole story will be dropped, without further investigation.
Hopefully King and the board are working dilligently behind the scenes and investigating the story themselves.
By the way…if it was complete BS how come players got letters to say they didn’t have to pay now on their ebt’s?
Or was that complete bs as well?

The Scottish media would do that as it down,t fit the narrative of rangers are bad.they
At every occasion have taken the line that we were tax cheats and rammed this down or throats .or brown,t fit their narrative that we may have been the victims here.

 

[SouthLDNBear]

I’m a little in fact more than a little concerned that because HMRC and every media outlet apart from The Times themseves, have disparaged and called the story BS that the whole story will be dropped, without further investigation.
Hopefully King and the board are working dilligently behind the scenes and investigating the story themselves.
By the way…if it was complete BS how come players got letters to say they didn’t have to pay now on their ebt’s?
Or was that complete bs as well?

IMO absolutely nothing will happen as a result of the Times article. As far as joe public is concerned, HMRC has hit back saying the Times article is incorrect, and the matter is now finished. There has been no follow up from the journalist who penned the story, it has just turned into a damp squib.

True position will come out eventually but it is highly unlikely that we will see any movement on this or clarification for quite some time yet.

 

[Haining84]

IMO absolutely nothing will happen as a result of the Times article. As far as joe public is concerned, HMRC has hit back saying the Times article is incorrect, and the matter is now finished. There has been no follow up from the journalist who penned the story, it has just turned into a damp squib.

True position will come out eventually but it is highly unlikely that we will see any movement on this or clarification for quite some time yet.

The editor of The Times came out quite publicly and stood by the article via twitter a couple of days ago.Surely there’s more to come?

 

[Kylegib]

Humble pie my arse ! Murray still sold us down the river to a crook who hadn’t a pot to piss in for the princely some of .......£1.

Murray was forced to sell Rangers by Lloyds bank so that they got money that was owed to them. I'm not defending Murray as he still has a lot to answer for however I don't think he can be blamed for the sale of the club.

 

[Haining84]

Murray was forced to sell Rangers by Lloyds bank so that they got money that was owed to them. I'm not defending Murray as he still has a lot to answer for however I don't think he can be blamed for the sale of the club.

David Murray put us in a position where he and we were being squeezed by the bank and the taxman.He’s ultimately the root cause and his lies about being ‘duped’ are utter horsesh!t.Any morsel of credibility he had left were stripped from him at the Whyte trial.

 

[Kylegib]

David Murray put us in a position where he and we were being squeezed by the bank and the taxman.He’s ultimately the root cause and his lies about being ‘duped’ are utter horsesh!t.Any morsel of credibility he had left were stripped from him at the Whyte trial.

As I said Murray has a lot to answer for but this situation imo has been a complete stitch up. A club the size of ours having the amount of debt now mentioned would've been manageable. This has been completely orchestrated to kill us off and hopefully the truth comes out one day.

 

[trueblue77]

As I said Murray has a lot to answer for but this situation imo has been a complete stitch up. A club the size of ours having the amount of debt now mentioned would've been manageable. This has been completely orchestrated to kill us off and hopefully the truth comes out one day.

Nobody forced Murray to use a tax avoidance scheme over the period that he did. He is ultimately to blame. His sale to Whyte was unforgivable, especially considering oldco board members were blowing the whistle on him from day one. King has gone on record as saying an alternative solution was available, if only Murray had discussed the situation with them.

 

[Chubster]

Murray was forced to sell Rangers by Lloyds bank so that they got money that was owed to them. I'm not defending Murray as he still has a lot to answer for however I don't think he can be blamed for the sale of the club.

Yes he was forced to sell the Club to Whyte however there was a sweetener for him where he was allowed to keep his metals business. Read into that as him simply looking after himself (would anyone honestly do things different? ) or was it Lloyds orchestrating a deal they knew would have grave consequences for the Club ?

 

[HandsomeHead]

You got proof of this Deedle?

My understanding is Whyte came to the table more via Andrew Ellis. Ellis, Whyte, Ahmed etc all worked in the same circles.

Ellis came to the table on his own initially but didn't have the funding to go through with a deal.

That's how I remember it.

Ellis appeared to be treated with scepticism right from the start as it seemed clear he didn't have the necessary financial clout to buy us on his own, but he later returned with Whyte in tow and the rest is history.

I always found it odd that Whyte was embraced as the real deal by many when Ellis had been more or less dismissed as a chancer.

I've always felt both were linked to Muir, but have never been able to find any concrete evidence of this.

It does make sense though. With the HMRC liability beginning to spiral into scary numbers you'd imagine Muir would be under considerable pressure to ditch the club by any means necessary at that point, which is more or less when Whyte appeared.

 

[CarlukeBear]

Nobody forced Murray to use a tax avoidance scheme over the period that he did. He is ultimately to blame. His sale to Whyte was unforgivable, especially considering oldco board members were blowing the whistle on him from day one. King has gone on record as saying an alternative solution was available, if only Murray had discussed the situation with them.

I am no fan of Minty but it is worth remembering that the scheme operated by MIM was perfectly legal at the time, it was retrospectively changed & then we fell foul.
Staggers me that this could be the case but ...

 

[dh1963]

And there are still many mentally challengeds who call us The Establishment Club.

Despite in the recent past their board containing 2 ex Cabinet ministers and them being the team supported by many current Scottish Government ministers and MPs.

 

[trueblue77]

I am no fan of Minty but it is worth remembering that the scheme operated by MIM was perfectly legal at the time, it was retrospectively changed & then we fell foul.
Staggers me that this could be the case but ...

Murray wasn't knowingly breaking any rules at the time, but he became involved with tax avoidance and that was the start of it. He was a big risk taker and that one was his undoing in the end.

 

[The Ranger]

The reason nothing will happen about this stitch up against Rangers is. The media in scotland, and some haters from out side scotland took part in our demise. They happily stuck the knife in with the rest of the bigots. So in my view they will have no appetite to call themselfs out.

 

[Kylegib]

Murray wasn't knowingly breaking any rules at the time, but he became involved with tax avoidance and that was the start of it. He was a big risk taker and that one was his undoing in the end.

It would appear the undoing was a complete stitch up. Murray was clearly looking to sell and he would have had many more interested buyers had the debt been reported properly.

 

[trueblue77]

It would appear the undoing was a complete stitch up. Murray was clearly looking to sell and he would have had many more interested buyers had the debt been reported properly.

Depends how you want to look at it. it was Murray's own choice to get involved with tax avoidance schemes in the first place. The HMRC inflated bill came next, then their refusal to to deal with Murray.

Murray was the root cause.

 

[Centralbear]

IMO absolutely nothing will happen as a result of the Times article. As far as joe public is concerned, HMRC has hit back saying the Times article is incorrect, and the matter is now finished. There has been no follow up from the journalist who penned the story, it has just turned into a damp squib.

True position will come out eventually but it is highly unlikely that we will see any movement on this or clarification for quite some time yet.

Think this is only finished until next BDO report or the one following in 2020.

It is they who are contesting HMRC's "grossing up" calculation and if it has been correctly applied. This is what the Times seem to be alluding to well as highlighting the not well reported previous reduction of £26m to total tax due.

Whether the Times has the inside track on the "grossing up" I do not know, but when HMRC started tweeting in defence against the report, the Times responded saying their source was "impeccable".

Take from that what you will, but time will have to show who is right, one way or another.

 

[Kylegib]

Depends how you want to look at it. it was Murray's own choice to get involved with tax avoidance schemes in the first place. The HMRC inflated bill came next, then their refusal to to deal with Murray.

Murray was the root cause.

When Murray got the club involved with EBTs they were perfectly legal and I'd imagine he'd have taken advice before using them. The inflated tax bill put off potential buyers then the constant demonising of our club had plenty believing we were cheats. Murray does have a lot to answer for but I believe this has been a complete stitch up.

 

[Alex Venters]

That's how I remember it.

Ellis appeared to be treated with scepticism right from the start as it seemed clear he didn't have the necessary financial clout to buy us on his own, but he later returned with Whyte in tow and the rest is history.

I always found it odd that Whyte was embraced as the real deal by many when Ellis had been more or less dismissed as a chancer.

I've always felt both were linked to Muir, but have never been able to find any concrete evidence of this.

It does make sense though. With the HMRC liability beginning to spiral into scary numbers you'd imagine Muir would be under considerable pressure to ditch the club by any means necessary at that point, which is more or less when Whyte appeared.

That's getting to the heart of it.
Lloyds wanted out with their debt paid. They, through Muir, embraced a known shyster in Craig Whyte full in the knowledge of the consequences for the club. There was a debt reduction plan in place, but they were spooked by the numbers being banded about on the BTC. Then they saw in Whyte a chance to cut and run with their money paid in one fell swoop.

Lloyds are as culpable as Whyte and Murray in this debacle.

 

[trueblue77]

I guess you either agree in principle with the idea behind tax avoidance, or you don't. I don't. Murray did, unfortunately. HMRC may have stitched us up but they were given the opportunity.

 

[Bennybear]

HMRC saying they've got their figures right, BDO saying Rangers were overcharged by £50 million on the tax bill. Its going to go on and on for quite some time so strap yourselves in, 2020 could end up like parts of 2012 all over again with this issue rearing its head again, but obviously no where near as bad.

Sent down to the Third Division and had to work our way back up for nothing and HMRC blocked our CVA despite there being many potential buyers for the club. Illegal transfer embargo, numerous fines, -10 point deduction, the list goes on. Still no sorry from anyone.

As for Craig Whyte, his takeover team, Charles Green and his takeover team, the lot of them should be in jail for concucting the biggest scandal in world football history as far as I'm concerned. As much as David Murray got us into this mess, the debt was decreasing every year, so why the urgency from Lloyds Bank to sell?

Former Celtic Chairman, John Reid, was the driving force to send us down.

Doctor death and his Labour Party pals where 100% behind this.

 

[BlueBuzz]

You got proof of this Deedle?

My understanding is Whyte came to the table more via Andrew Ellis. Ellis, Whyte, Ahmed etc all worked in the same circles.

Ellis came to the table on his own initially but didn't have the funding to go through with a deal.

How did Whyte ever pass being a fit and proper person to take us over? Surely the checks that the football authorities do in this country would have ruled him out at the early stages. . Comes back to the SFA / SPFL being told by Lawell , Thomson, Milne, Petrie etc what to do.

 

[Centralbear]

It was Murray rather than Lloyds who brought in Whyte. Of course, Lloyds would have exerted pressure.

Due to the failings of the Scottish criminal justice system we’re never going to find out exactly what happened but it is difficult to see how Whyte could have got his hands on the Ticketus money without authorisation from Murray and Rangers.


The ‘grossing up’ of the EBT bill undoubtedly blocked any potential bids from credible buyers. But when was the club presented with this?

There must have been a point when HMRC’s stance changed from simply wanting payment of tax and NI on the EBTs to one that added penalties. The sensible and logical decision would have been to scrap EBTs in 2008 and agree to settle with HMRC on the same terms as Arsenal. As far as I’m aware we’ve never been told when the board was informed of the situation re HMRC. Was it misled?5


Despite the vast sums claimed to be owed by the club when it entered administration, Rangers FC benefited by only £18m from the EBT scheme. State and local government aid to Celtic over the past three decades surely exceeds that figure.

Deedle, you're correct that as soon as HMRC got involved Murray should have immediately wound up scheme at Rangers, however if it was 2008, by that time damage was largely done as only around £6m was paid into EBTs from 2008-10.

I've only ever seen that HMRC first charged £38m, ie. they immediately "grossed up" the figure, so if they did this in 2008, even without penalties Murray/Rangers were likely still unlikely to be allowed to do a deal.

IMO, if HMRC had only been looking go recover tax unpaid on EBTs ( not grossed up ) with a nominal interest charge, then a deal would have been done of some sort and they would have recovered all tax due. It is sad to this day why no politician or journalist have asked why we were pursued so aggressively for an inflated figure, which was never likely to give us a chance of meeting.

As a foot note, the financial, benefit to Rangers from a football point of view of this scheme is further reduced as £12m of EBT contributions were to Murray(£6m), other directors and non playing staff.

As you previously stated Murray had the audacity to charge Rangers yearly some £0.6m for managing the scheme, so from your figure of £18m, they have gained possibly as little as £8m from a playering point of view.

This during a time 2001-2010, Rangers paid total wages plus EBT contributions of £330m from turnover of £573m. Draw from this what you will, my conclusion is that sensible budgeting by Murray would have led to no less in achievements without the horrific cost of 2012.

 

[HandsomeHead]

That's getting to the heart of it.
Lloyds wanted out with their debt paid. They, through Muir, embraced a known shyster in Craig Whyte full in the knowledge of the consequences for the club. There was a debt reduction plan in place, but they were spooked by the numbers being banded about on the BTC. Then they saw in Whyte a chance to cut and run with their money paid in one fell swoop.

Lloyds are as culpable as Whyte and Murray in this debacle.

The big question has always been just how proactive Muir and Lloyd’s were in Whyte’s sudden materialising.

Did he really just think to himself one day, “I reckon I could jump in there and make a quick killing on this lot”, or in the absence of any credible and more altruistic buyers, did Muir and McGill start getting desperate and began flicking through the dodgier names in their little black book?

 

[deedle]

You got proof of this Deedle?

My understanding is Whyte came to the table more via Andrew Ellis. Ellis, Whyte, Ahmed etc all worked in the same circles.

Ellis came to the table on his own initially but didn't have the funding to go through with a deal.

Anything involving Murray and Toxic Jack cannot be taken at face value. Whyte has links with Irvine in 2009.

John Brown said that David Murray sought out Whyte.

I suspect the Ellis business was something of a charade to put pressure on people who were genuinely interested.

 

[HandsomeHead]

Anything involving Murray and Toxic Jack cannot be taken at face value. Whyte has links with Irvine in 2009.

John Brown said that David Murray sought out Whyte.

I suspect the Ellis business was something of a charade to put pressure on people who were genuinely interested.

Given the apparent connection between Ellis and Whyte, do you think the latter was also part of that charade? i.e. when nobody emerged out of the woodwork due to Ellis’s transparent unsuitability, Whyte and his spurious millions popped up as bigger bait.

 

[deedle]

Deedle, you're correct that as soon as HMRC got involved Murray should have immediately wound up scheme at Rangers, however if it was 2008, by that time damage was largely done as only around £6m was paid into EBTs from 2008-10.

I've only ever seen that HMRC first charged £38m, ie. they immediately "grossed up" the figure, so if they did this in 2008, even without penalties Murray/Rangers were likely still unlikely to be allowed to do a deal.

IMO, if HMRC had only been looking go recover tax unpaid on EBTs ( not grossed up ) with a nominal interest charge, then a deal would have been done of some sort and they would have recovered all tax due. It is sad to this day why no politician or journalist have asked why we were pursued so aggressively for an inflated figure, which was never likely to give us a chance of meeting.

As a foot note, the financial, benefit to Rangers from a football point of view of this scheme is further reduced as £12m of EBT contributions were to Murray(£6m), other directors and non playing staff.

As you previously stated Murray had the audacity to charge Rangers yearly some £0.6m for managing the scheme, so from your figure of £18m, they have gained possibly as little as £8m from a playering point of view.

This during a time 2001-2010, Rangers paid total wages plus EBT contributions of £330m from turnover of £573m. Draw from this what you will, my conclusion is that sensible budgeting by Murray would have led to no less in achievements without the horrific cost of 2012.

It is certainly infuriating how a situation that was difficult but not catastrophic spiralled out of control.