Zeb Jacobs.

Wonder who we go for as a replacement? Do we change tact, or do we go for someone of a similar background. I'm hoping it's the latter, the old school Scottish way has bore us little fruit in the past.

A lot of ridicule has been chucked at him on this thread, yet he came from a club that has a good record of developing players. He's now heading to a club that have been brilliant at producing youth players in recent years.

He's obviously well respected in his field. Likes to push boundaries. Which of course gets you flak in Scotland, especially Scottish football. Given how primitive our footballing culture is, it's not really a shock.
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.
 
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.

I'm a very harsh critic of out academy mate but I can't agree with you here.

The number of young Scottish lads that have been developed at Scottish clubs in recent years and have gone on to play at extremely high levels is very impressive.

I can't be arsed listing them all but the vast majority of the national side are playing at good levels and we're trained in Scotland.

It can be done and we need to be better at it.

On the topic at hand we do need a bit more long termism in roles like that I think but nevermind I'm sure we'll manage.
 
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.

I think its more a cultural issue as opposed to talent.

Portugal, Belgium and Croatia have talent after talent coming through every year, with how invested Scottish society is to football we should be doing far far better.
 
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.

I don't think that's strictly true. There are of course challenges given our cultural proclivity for a bad diet and a toxic drinking culture, but even that is gradually changing. Young people spend more and more time at the gym, on nutrition/diet and less time getting hammered, than my generation ever did (I'm a millennial).

I think it just requires more than one club to change it's culture, though. We need to address the violent elephant in the room, we celebrate dangerous challenges and like our game to be overtly physical. Which is almost totally incompatible with the majority of modern football, especially elite level European football.

We produce talent, we just don't nurture it well enough. We don't have a league system that allows us to nurture talent either.
 
We have the guy who oversees our entire Academy operation on a contract with a one month notice period?! Is that normal for these sort of roles does anyone know?
Sounds like we agreed a poor contract. If Manchester City and Feyenoord had interest in him you would have to think he had something about him. I would hope we have already started to move for a replacement.
 
Sounds like we agreed a poor contract. If Manchester City and Feyenoord had interest in him you would have to think he had something about him. I would hope we have already started to move for a replacement.
Looks to me as that the contract situation was a major part in how we got him in the first place.

I don't know anything about him or what his job was but obviously he is very good at something if City and Feyenoord wanted him.
 
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.
Go and watch a 7 a sides festival at u11s between performance clubs and then tell me what u think about the talent in the country ,
 
Not sure of the cost but we need an Academy otherwise we can't enter European Competitions
Not taking sides in this debate as I don’t know enough about it but surely it would be possible to have an ‘academy’ just filled with decent local players without too much investment and still fulfill UEFA’s rules?
 
Not taking sides in this debate as I don’t know enough about it but surely it would be possible to have an ‘academy’ just filled with decent local players without too much investment and still fulfill UEFA’s rules?

You could, however there’s a few reason why it would be worse for as the cost of your academy is a credit towards your loses if you have any for FFP and there’s no point running it with poorer players when it will cost you near enough the same.

Also until the homegrown handcuffs are removed we need club & nation trained and it’s better to try and have the best players in that squad.

Any other club would have a Director of Football who would already know the first person to interview for the job. 2 of those 3 have no football background and Koppen is a scout

Koppen isn’t a scout and hasn’t been one full time for a while. His last job at PSV was two layered he was the head of scouts and part of the recruitment team
 
His name always makes me think of a hillbilly from the Appalachian mountains.

The academy needs a bit of a re-boot, the guys who closely follow it are clear that the main reserve/B Team group are not playing enough competitive games. Whether that means going back to the Lowland or something else who knows.
With the SPFL route seemingly closed an interesting option would have been trying to get in the Premier League 2 down in England.

They've changed the format of that to a 26 team league where they play 20 games in a format a bit similar to the new Champions League so they can accommodate as many teams as they want.

Should have been all over that but it seems the B Team has had very little attention since Mulholland left.
 
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Yeah standard won't be great in the Lowland League but 34 league games in a way gets them to prepare for how it might be were they to get to the first team. Learning how to look after their body/recovery after the games and you then have them playing challenge cup, some u18 Scottish cup games , potentially 6 Youth League games in Europe and the Glasgow Cup so nearly about 50 games a season. Must surely be better than hoping for a friendly against an EPL side?

The whole system in Scotland needs looked at especially the Pyramid but the B teams should be in there and allowed promotion to at least League one. There needs to be something after the U18 league to bridge the gap but also for development purposes for them to continue if they're not ready for first team football.
While they are at it maybe they should look at grass root football I have lived most of my life in Holland and the grass root football is top notch
 
While they are at it maybe they should look at grass root football I have lived most of my life in Holland and the grass root football is top notch

Yeah as someone who coaches at grassroots all be it a young age group I would agree with that. Sure i've read before they do everything a year earlier than we do in terms of moving up the levels/game formats but I might be wrong on that might be confusing it with down south.
 
Could you put Silva in the superstar bracket? he started there and was a 35m ( next Ronaldo)

I'm not having a go here, genuinely wondering what your arguement is there?

The guy you quoted correctly stated that Benfica have had an excellent return on their academy.

Silva was at Porto from the ages of 8 to 13, joined Benfica for 2 years, let go & then rejoined Porto at the age of 15.

Is your point that Benfica were wrong to let him go & should have predicted he would go on to bag them £35m?
 
I think its more a cultural issue as opposed to talent.

Portugal, Belgium and Croatia have talent after talent coming through every year, with how invested Scottish society is to football we should be doing far far better.
The ones that do all have moved to different ladies eventually

If they stay here they get caught up in the kick what moves and the poor standard of refereeing.

The refs know the rules but they chose not to implement them correctly or in some cases are incompetent.

When the players go to league with better ref standards they start to excel
 
We really need our acadamy ripped apart and starting again with it.
Agreed.

The whole point is to see development and progress year on year.

We see absolutely %^*& all.

It flip flops from one restructure to another, from different personnel going in and out a revolving door. Its a fucking mess.
 
Agreed.

The whole point is to see development and progress year on year.

We see absolutely %^*& all.

It flip flops from one restructure to another, from different personnel going in and out a revolving door. Its a fucking mess.
We don't develop players beyond youth team capabilities. Mccausland won't be a mainstay in our team.

For what little return we get there should be a 5 year plan in place. If we're not getting first team players from it we should bin the academy and invest more in scouting.

Probably won't be a popular idea but it's better than developing players for the league 1 and championship teams to pick up for %^*& all.
 
I'm not having a go here, genuinely wondering what your arguement is there?

The guy you quoted correctly stated that Benfica have had an excellent return on their academy.

Silva was at Porto from the ages of 8 to 13, joined Benfica for 2 years, let go & then rejoined Porto at the age of 15.

Is your point that Benfica were wrong to let him go & should have predicted he would go on to bag them £35m?
It was a question i asked not an argument raised, but Benfica must rue letting him go if he went for £35m a few years later, they are a fantastic club at buying cheaply or nurturing to sell for fantastic money after a relative short time so yea i suppose that is my point.
 
Youth football isn’t all about results. I think as a support we have always struggled with that. Many of the fans would prefer we went back thirty years and signed the biggest strongest players and won trophies at home and abroad. While we were doing that other clubs were developing proper players that we would then eventually sign. Even worse our record of letting small players go only to see them grow into players as they matured wasn’t great.

At the first sign of a poor result we also find the youngsters easy pickings. King and Mcausland spring to mind. How can any player develop if they can’t risk making a mistake.

You might win an International Youth pre-season tournament with a team of Kevin Kyle’s but you won’t be winning the SPL with them.
 
Go and watch a 7 a sides festival at u11s between performance clubs and then tell me what u think about the talent in the country ,
Am only posing the questions in a non critical way mate, I don’t know nor have the answers to us getting players through.

I think your reply is suggesting the talent is there at the performance clubs?
 
He’s not well liked by quite a gee different grouops, players their families, other coaches etc.

Like I said before there’s elements of sour grapes I think, it was also the same with Mulholland, Sinclair, same as Allen and Wilson with the DOF role.
In most businesses, but especially football where there’s an emotional investment, the CEO, the DOF, the Head of Finance, the Head of Academy are never universally popular.

There are many reasons, but the Academy head is a routine target because parents are very close to the action, and fans always expect players to come through like clockwork, and are angry when they don’t.
 
With the SPFL route seemingly closed an interesting option would have been trying to get in the Premier League 2 down in England.

They've changed the format of that to a 26 team league where they play 20 games in a format a bit similar to the new Champions League so they can accommodate as many teams as they want.

Should have been all over that but it seems the B Team has had very little attention since Mulholland left.
Great suggestion and one that should be looked at, I’ve banged on about a youth side down south for long enough.
 
No pathway after U18 is a major issue for the Scottish game. The dinosaurs at the SFA don't have an appetite to change this and it's at the detriment of every young prospect in Scotland. The B teams in the pyramid is a proven model that works wonders across Europe.

Many people seem to have an issue with Zeb on this forum. His methods were modern and concentrated on making players better in 1v1 situations and creating these 1v1's all over the park. These were all backed up with science and data on how the game is changing.

A common complaint is the u15/u16 results. If we are looking at this objectively, Zeb hasn't been In the building long enough or been involved in these age groups formative years. In my mind we would see the fruits of his work in 6-10 years.

The creation of Rangers Ready centres across the country should see us picking up the best players in the country at a much younger age and allowing us a much greater input in there development.


Unfortunately there seems to still be the Scottish mentality across the board of get the biggest and fastest boys in at a young age and make sure we win our u14 games. When in reality the more technical players are the ones who are gonna make the grade longer term.


The whole attitude to youth development needs to change across the board. I thought we were the ones leading the change under Zeb and I hope that we continue to be the leaders after his departure.
 
Is it possible that developing players in Scotland is actually impossible, irrespective of who's in charge...?

Could it be that right across the board, the actual quality & fitness levels of the players from an early age to teenage years is simply not good enough to take forward...?

The odd exception may be the likes of Ben Doak or Rory Wilson, but they are 2 out of 000's.
just back from a trip abroad to my mates in Italy he stays in a town population 30,000 ish he said what swayed it for him ( when discussing how some nations perform better ) was 1 weekend roughly a Saturday 6pm 2 teenagers (16-18) standing at a bus stop football boots in hand .......


its dedication to succeed , he followed it up by stating " what would Scottish kids similar age be doing on a Saturday night
 
Agreed, but instead of trying to be really fancy and appointing a kid to run our academy, maybe we should appoint someone with experience of producing Scottish footballers.

FWIW, David Gold, Alistair Stevenson and Kevin Thomson are all appropriate candidates to run our academy.

We do need a pathway for the 18-21 age group however, and that is down the national body to provide a platform for the kids.

Based on what?
 
Please . Welsh and Ralston lol .
I get what you are saying but at the end of the day they have 2 average, Scottish, homegrown players contributing on small wages from their academy and it has been enough to win them the league for the last 2 seasons. Not every player promoted from the academy has to be a key player.

Instead of constantly buying sub standard players we should give youth a proper chance. And I’m not talking about 5 or 10 mins here and there.

This - IMO we have a horrible history of going to the English Championship for squad players and signing up average players on inflated English wages, when really an academy player would probably give a similar output. I get there are exceptions to some players from the EFL.
 
Surely we must be looking at our own academy model and structure with not so much a critical eye but one that is focused on improving it dramatically? The outlay of £4.2m per season is not insignificant, so therefore we should be trying to maximise the return on investment from the bottom up.

It comes back to three key questions:

1) How do Rangers attract (and reduce their chances of missing out on) the best talent from Scotland?

2) How do Rangers attract (and reduce their chances of missing out on) the best talent (at academy age) from outside Scotland?

3) How do Rangers provide the best possible facilities, infrastructure and pathway to give the academy players the best possible opportunity to become first team players?

Somewhere along the the line, at this moment in time, it isn’t working and hasn’t really done for many years.

Personally, I would be looking at networking with clubs with the most successful academies across Europe. Say for example, Benfica, City, Feyenoord, Ajax and Liverpool for example. A variety of countries, no doubt with nuances to each of their set ups. How are they structured? What are their focuses in terms of player type/ game demands/ training and competition level for their age groups etc etc. in effect: what makes them more successful in bringing through their own prospects to have an impact at first team level.

Then, I would look within our own academy and its culture. Does it have alignment with these other clubs in key areas? We might have aspects that will bear fruit in future years, like Rangers Ready for example but there may be other aspects that require improvement or indeed significant change.

The culture around the academy has to be right. Murmurs of discontent spread and this comes across in other posts on this thread. You aren’t going to be an attractive proposition in this instance and parents will take their children elsewhere. Fact of life. This, before anything else, has to change.

Change brings resistance, granted but we have to align with what is working well elsewhere. It is a basic business model for success. Aligning with the best but tweaking for our own environment is the only way that our academy is every going to provide value for money and therefore more players that are first team ready.

To fully implement this for lasting success, you have to have the right people driving the change over its initial period. If Zeb Jacobs does leave or indeed isn’t the right man for it, we need to appoint the right person to do it but we also need someone with the appetite to look outside of their own views and at what is working well for other clubs. It will require quite significant changes in ‘the way we do things round here’. If that involves us looking to push our players at older age groups by looking to join the English system, go all out to do it.

If we don’t change, we will just be doing the same thing as we’ve always done and expecting different results and that is the first sign of laziness and idiocy.
 
Youth football isn’t all about results. I think as a support we have always struggled with that. Many of the fans would prefer we went back thirty years and signed the biggest strongest players and won trophies at home and abroad. While we were doing that other clubs were developing proper players that we would then eventually sign. Even worse our record of letting small players go only to see them grow into players as they matured wasn’t great.

At the first sign of a poor result we also find the youngsters easy pickings. King and Mcausland spring to mind. How can any player develop if they can’t risk making a mistake.

You might win an International Youth pre-season tournament with a team of Kevin Kyle’s but you won’t be winning the SPL with them.

Rangers don't do much to fight against recruiting early maturers or fighting the relative age effect.

Our academy is actually often filled with either or both.
 
I don't think that's strictly true. There are of course challenges given our cultural proclivity for a bad diet and a toxic drinking culture, but even that is gradually changing. Young people spend more and more time at the gym, on nutrition/diet and less time getting hammered, than my generation ever did (I'm a millennial).

I think it just requires more than one club to change it's culture, though. We need to address the violent elephant in the room, we celebrate dangerous challenges and like our game to be overtly physical. Which is almost totally incompatible with the majority of modern football, especially elite level European football.

We produce talent, we just don't nurture it well enough. We don't have a league system that allows us to nurture talent either.

Refs are too lenient at every level of Scottish football.

Young Scottish flair players get their careers ended early by injuries caused from getting scythed down repeatedly by hammer throwers.

There are too many neds/bams in Scottish football at every level, they get away with the fouling because the refs are too lenient.
 
We don't develop players beyond youth team capabilities. Mccausland won't be a mainstay in our team.

For what little return we get there should be a 5 year plan in place. If we're not getting first team players from it we should bin the academy and invest more in scouting.

Probably won't be a popular idea but it's better than developing players for the league 1 and championship teams to pick up for %^*& all.

Binning the academy isn't an option it's part of the license requirement to play in European competition so if we want to keep progressing as a club financially then the Academy has to stay. We've had the likes of Rory Wilson, Billy Gilmour, Dire Mebude lost to teams down south before they turn 16 because they can offer financial packages we simply can't compete with. Granted Dire Mebdue career hasn't exactly kicked off since he left City in the summer Gilmour has and Wilson seems to be doing well at Villa.

I agree on McCausland but surely if they're good enough which McCausland has showed he by contributing this season then makes more sense to have them squad players? Allows the funds to then go to a player of quality for that position instead of say giving £2m to Killie for Danny Armstrong as an example.

We struggle because fans don't give them the opportunities as soon as they make a mistake there on the backs McCausland has got it tight on here Leon King before him etc. The game in Scotland needs to do more to help develop younger talent try bridge that gap between u18s and first team football. Some of the loan moves you mention are because they're not going to make it with us. In recent times cause of the squad conditions with Lowland League there's nothing for them at the club so they're loaned out to continue their development as a player.
 
Surely we must be looking at our own academy model and structure with not so much a critical eye but one that is focused on improving it dramatically? The outlay of £4.2m per season is not insignificant, so therefore we should be trying to maximise the return on investment from the bottom up.

It comes back to three key questions:

1) How do Rangers attract (and reduce their chances of missing out on) the best talent from Scotland?

2) How do Rangers attract (and reduce their chances of missing out on) the best talent (at academy age) from outside Scotland?

3) How do Rangers provide the best possible facilities, infrastructure and pathway to give the academy players the best possible opportunity to become first team players?

Somewhere along the the line, at this moment in time, it isn’t working and hasn’t really done for many years.

Personally, I would be looking at networking with clubs with the most successful academies across Europe. Say for example, Benfica, City, Feyenoord, Ajax and Liverpool for example. A variety of countries, no doubt with nuances to each of their set ups. How are they structured? What are their focuses in terms of player type/ game demands/ training and competition level for their age groups etc etc. in effect: what makes them more successful in bringing through their own prospects to have an impact at first team level.

Then, I would look within our own academy and its culture. Does it have alignment with these other clubs in key areas? We might have aspects that will bear fruit in future years, like Rangers Ready for example but there may be other aspects that require improvement or indeed significant change.

The culture around the academy has to be right. Murmurs of discontent spread and this comes across in other posts on this thread. You aren’t going to be an attractive proposition in this instance and parents will take their children elsewhere. Fact of life. This, before anything else, has to change.

Change brings resistance, granted but we have to align with what is working well elsewhere. It is a basic business model for success. Aligning with the best but tweaking for our own environment is the only way that our academy is every going to provide value for money and therefore more players that are first team ready.

To fully implement this for lasting success, you have to have the right people driving the change over its initial period. If Zeb Jacobs does leave or indeed isn’t the right man for it, we need to appoint the right person to do it but we also need someone with the appetite to look outside of their own views and at what is working well for other clubs. It will require quite significant changes in ‘the way we do things round here’. If that involves us looking to push our players at older age groups by looking to join the English system, go all out to do it.

If we don’t change, we will just be doing the same thing as we’ve always done and expecting different results and that is the first sign of laziness and idiocy.

Well if you go back through the Ajax team we played last season or PSV this season a lot of their players had 2 or 3 years experience as younger players playing in the Dutch 2nd division. Benfica have a team in the 2nd division in Portugal and an U23 team.

Compare that to Scotland what have we got? An under 18 league and then 2 B teams in the Lowland League other than that the expectation is straight into first team football or a loan move. There's a reserve league where teams play each other once and once in a cup so 14 games a year. Until there's a radical change thought process in Scotland youth development will always be an issue in this country.

Answer with question 2 part of it will be losing players cause we can't sign kids from Europe for example them until they're 18. That effects EPL clubs as well so that in turn has a part to play in your answer for question 1 as well.
 
Am only posing the questions in a non critical way mate, I don’t know nor have the answers to us getting players through.

I think your reply is suggesting the talent is there at the performance clubs?
The talent is great at the young ages it goes to shit as they get older I’m not entirely sure why that is but our culture will definitely play a part in that .
 
Silva falls to the ground often because he is not used to the rough and tumble way football is played in Scotland.

In Portugal and other countries the game is a lot more technical and less physical. He is not used to the way players frequently physically barge into each other, the way they do in Scotland.

Fabio Cardoso is another example, he wasn't great for us but has gone on to have a good career in Portugal. He openly admitted he didn't like the way refs were so lenient and allowed players to be so physical, that just won't happen in Portugal.

The physical nature of the Scottish game is nothing to be proud of, it is really detrimental. It's a culture that should be stamped out by the SFA/SPFL.

We should be progressing to a similar technical style of play like they have in Portugal, that's exactly what the English have been trying to do for the last 20 years and it is working wonders for their youth development and national team.

Yes the English have a lot more money to do it, but it wouldn't cost a lot of money to just tell Scottish refs to be much stricter on punishing fouls, it would be a good first step.
 
Well if you go back through the Ajax team we played last season or PSV this season a lot of their players had 2 or 3 years experience as younger players playing in the Dutch 2nd division. Benfica have a team in the 2nd division in Portugal and an U23 team.

Compare that to Scotland what have we got? An under 18 league and then 2 B teams in the Lowland League other than that the expectation is straight into first team football or a loan move. There's a reserve league where teams play each other once and once in a cup so 14 games a year. Until there's a radical change thought process in Scotland youth development will always be an issue in this country.

Answer with question 2 part of it will be losing players cause we can't sign kids from Europe for example them until they're 18. That effects EPL clubs as well so that in turn has a part to play in your answer for question 1 as well.
I was meaning from down south rather than Europe as I am aware of that fact. We have picked up the likes of Lovelace, Yfeko etc from down here.

Your other point in what I was alluding to; we need to explore all options for our younger players. If that means looking outside of Scotland to seek it, so be it.
 
This is immensely more difficult than people realise.
So we try nothing different and get the same results? I’m not saying it’s easy or whether it would be possible to join another competition at academy level, but surely we have to explore our options?

We’ve heard of ‘best v best’ and a variety of other sound bytes over many years. Our academy has never been prolific; when have we really been at our best producing a number of players who have broken into the first team? Definitely not in recent times.

If we can’t play competitive games against opponents from outside of Scotland regularly, so be it but surely it is worth us exploring the possibility?
 
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